How is the Tory government doing?

Sluffy wrote:
All the endless criticising and foaming at the mouth about how totally incompetent the government was doing, week after week, month after month, on here - by all the usual suspects - and it turns out the government actually had got on top of things more than any one of you had though - nor no doubt could believe (certainly not admit to!!!).

The death rate was clearly slowed down, so much in fact that six other country's in Europe were shown now to be far worse - and that was up to mid December too - before the vaccine rollout had even had chance to get started (it had only been going two weeks and it takes three weeks for the vaccine to become effective).

Everything the government did was roundly and routinely rubbished on here by those who obviously know best, or at least they think they do, yet contrary to their smugness and all knowingness the government handling of the pandemic has indeed improved considerably since the start of the pandemic - the fall in death rate proves that - when we, the country, simply didn't have the capacity, knowledge or even the true factual information (thanks to China's concealing the true facts) to cope with it.

Ok just to be clear:

• You want posters on here to acknowledge the government handling has been pretty good.
  
• Because there were just 6 countries in Europe with a worse death rate than us up until 18 December? (I think that's a full month before daily deaths peaked).
  
• The first wave was so bad as a result of misinformation coming out of China? Or is that all subsequent waves too?
  

And no i absolutely wouldn't use woke in the context of criticising gov policy it's become a bit of a lazy catch all used by the right to undermine any opposition because they know it will trigger a certain base. Wokeness is to be aware of societal inequality and injustice.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:
All the endless criticising and foaming at the mouth about how totally incompetent the government was doing, week after week, month after month, on here - by all the usual suspects - and it turns out the government actually had got on top of things more than any one of you had though - nor no doubt could believe (certainly not admit to!!!).

The death rate was clearly slowed down, so much in fact that six other country's in Europe were shown now to be far worse - and that was up to mid December too - before the vaccine rollout had even had chance to get started (it had only been going two weeks and it takes three weeks for the vaccine to become effective).

Everything the government did was roundly and routinely rubbished on here by those who obviously know best, or at least they think they do, yet contrary to their smugness and all knowingness the government handling of the pandemic has indeed improved considerably since the start of the pandemic - the fall in death rate proves that - when we, the country, simply didn't have the capacity, knowledge or even the true factual information (thanks to China's concealing the true facts) to cope with it.

Ok just to be clear:

• You want posters on here to acknowledge the government handling has been pretty good.
  
• Because there were just 6 countries in Europe with a worse death rate than us up until 18 December? (I think that's a full month before daily deaths peaked).
  
• The first wave was so bad as a result of misinformation coming out of China? Or is that all subsequent waves too?
  

And no i absolutely wouldn't use woke in the context of criticising gov policy it's become a bit of a lazy catch all used by the right to undermine any opposition because they know it will trigger a certain base. Wokeness is to be aware of societal inequality and injustice.

Nope, this is the point I made...

Sluffy wrote:I'm not looking for praise of the government, they were only doing their job, I was looking for an acknowledgement from those with a blind hatred of all things Tory, that just because they have different politics to you doesn't mean they are wrong in everything they do.

There is a toxicity on here (and from some/many people in general) that all things Tory are shit and all things 'woke' (am I using the word in the right context - I think I am?) are wonderful, when neither extreme is the case.

To be fair you are the only one on here who will give reasons for what you say and believe in and concede at times that not everything the Tory government has done has always been wrong.

As for the rest who frequently vent their hatred on this thread...

...not a word!

Can't say I'm at all surprised though.

Ok, I might have used the wrong word in woke, I'm still trying to understand how the word is used grammatically as it is still somewhat new to me, so exchange that for anti-Tory sentiment then, as I suspect most of those with the hatred and obssession against them won't be Tory voters.

My point is and always has been that no government is always completely right or completely wrong in what they do.  Unfortunetly the anti-Conservatives seem to believe however that everything the government does is shit - and clearly that simply isn't the case.

I'm not sure why you seem uncertain about my comment on China?  It is widely accepted now that China withheld the true details about the virus at the start of the pandemic on which the modelling of the virus spread and impact was based, it only became truly clear what the world was facing when data from Italy was analysed and the virus was already unstoppable from spreading worldwide by then.  It hit every country in the world (apart from some far flung places) and continued to ripple around it thereafter with the various waves since.

Yes the death rate for the UK peaked in January and I think that is mainly because of the virus rollout that started the month before it.  My point being that like for like before the vaccination became available the death rate had already declined from being the worst in Europe (which we heard so much about from some on here!) to below that of six other countrys including Spain's.  So something caused that, which could only be how the government managed the pandemic compared to how other countrys governments managed theirs. Yet everything they had done was shit according to those on here!

Clearly it wasn't.

Yes I  agree with you nothing is as simple as all good or all bad, it would be a mistake to claim otherwise. 

Personally i think they've done an awful job overall, and I'd like to see the public inquiry which has been in the news this week.

I think this is worth posting up, it is an interview with Mairead McGuinness a European Commisioner today, primarily in respect of Covid vaccine 'nationalism' but what is relevant his her statements on how the pandemic was initially dealt with by all country's not just ours.

Her comments echo mine, mainly that no one was prepared for it and no one dealt with it particularly well.  

This isn't about how the Tory government dealt with it badly, it is how the world dealt with it badly simply because no one had faced such a thing before and had the right answers to it.

We know better now and we have learned from our mistakes and that for the UK can even be proved in the comparative fall in death rates compared to other European country's from the initial stance we took (based on false information from China) to how through a series of measures the government took from then until the middle of December (all of which were routinely called shit on here) actually brought that about.

Anyway the clip -

Sluffy wrote:I think this is worth posting up, it is an interview with Mairead McGuinness a European Commisioner today, primarily in respect of Covid vaccine 'nationalism' but what is relevant his her statements on how the pandemic was initially dealt with by all country's not just ours.

Her comments echo mine, mainly that no one was prepared for it and no one dealt with it particularly well.  

This isn't about how the Tory government dealt with it badly, it is how the world dealt with it badly simply because no one had faced such a thing before and had the right answers to it.

We know better now and we have learned from our mistakes and that for the UK can even be proved in the comparative fall in death rates compared to other European country's from the initial stance we took (based on false information from China) to how through a series of measures the government took from then until the middle of December (all of which were routinely called shit on here) actually brought that about.

Anyway the clip -

See post 693 above where you can watch what Ian Hislop said on Question Time last week

okocha wrote:
See post 693 above where you can watch what Ian Hislop said on Question Time last week

Indeed.

okocha wrote:
See post 693 above where you can watch what Ian Hislop said on Question Time last week

What point are you trying to make though?

Of course some, lots even, of what the government under Johnson has done is on the face of it very wrong - as Hislop points out with his lampooning of them but that doesn't mean it ALL is.

As I keep on repeating myself, as I seem to have to constantly do on here, we only hear one side of the story and if it 'fits' with our preconceived prejudices and bias we take it as 'facts' that confirm what you believed was happening in the first place is true.

I like to hear both sides of the story and the actual facts as to what really happened (and why) before shouting coruption, cornyism and whatever else from the rooftops like you and others clearly do.

Fwiw it seems Interserve (a British company) which currently holds the contract for the Cabinet Offices Facilities Management.

It was Interserve (now merged with Mitie another British Company) that sub-contracted the work out to Megahertz (which was originally a British Company based in the UK but bought out by a Russian company as stated.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that anyone other than British nationals installed the new facility.

It is simply - and yet again - inuendo, people being led to the conclussions that others want you to make.

Fwiw I watched the Panorama programme on Cashing in on Covid a few days back.

If you watched the programme with a belief already that the government was giving contracts to their mates, then you would be absolutely convinced of it after watching it HOWEVER if instead you watched the programme with an open mind looking for the facts to prove cronyism, then you wouldn't find anything there - there simple was nothing there other than putting 'two and two together and getting five'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000t8td/panorama-cashing-in-on-covid

I know I'm wasting my breath as people simply have closed minds and have already decided what they 'want to believe as happened' but there is simply no facts to prove the case, just inuendo and a hatred of all things Tory - just as it seems with the case Hislop lampoons.

As they say there are none so blind as those that will not see.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/russian-owned-megahertz-downing-street-media-refit_uk_604e42c0c5b672fce4ed8649

I'm not defending Johnson or the Tory government what I am saying is you can't be prejudicial against everything they do (or any other political party for that matter) because they all get somethings right and they all get somethings wrong.

I just ask for proof of what they are accused of doing wrong and not inuendo.

Is that too much for me to ask?

I'm not making any point: I simply suggested you watch what Hislop had to say and make your own mind up, as you did with Ms McGuinness.

It would be interesting, Sluffy, if you could list all the things that you feel Boris and his ministers should be congratulated for (omitting the roll-out of the vaccine which we can all see the NHS and government have done well)

I remember you saying that comparisons with other countries is unfair, so let's not go down that road.....just a list of great, timely decisions and actions/words.

boltonbonce wrote:"I just ask for proof of what they are accused of doing wrong and not inuendo".


You heard Sluffy, Bob.

Poor old Sluffy. Forget the innuendo, trying to hold out against the massed ranks of stubborn as couch grass lefties can't be good for anyone's wellbeing.

Anyroad the Rags got beat today which was nice but where was Saint Marcus? I don't suppose he was helping out at the Wythenshawe Food Bank, was he? Maybe he was going to but couldn't find it. 

I'm sorry if I'm too inquisitive but doncha think it's  interesting how nice everyone thinks the Reebok is yet hardly anyone wants to know who paid for it and doncha also think that Okocha's nicefulness is terrific?

Who did pay for it, Bob?

okocha wrote:I'm not making any point: I simply suggested you watch what Hislop had to say and make your own mind up, as you did with Ms McGuinness.

It would be interesting, Sluffy, if you could list all the things that you feel Boris and his ministers should be congratulated for (omitting the roll-out of the vaccine which we can all see the NHS and government have done well)

I remember you saying that comparisons with other countries is unfair, so let's not go down that road.....just a list of great, timely decisions and actions/words.

I did say comparisons with other countries should not be considered factual - do you really believe the death statistics from China, Russia, North Korea, Iran and a whole load of others who have obviously hid the truth.  I don't however believe the likes of Spain and Portugal have been telling porkies about them do you?

I also said I wasn't looking to praise the government for doing their job, which the fall in death rate from highest in Europe at the start of the pandemic falling to seventh by December seems to indicate that in comparison to those six country's that overtook us (and probably others too) clearly suggests that the government were dealing better with the pandemic than they were over that period.  I think that is unarguable.

And fwiw, and not that I wished it to happen but the country at the 2019 General Election clearly voted for Johnson's government and it delivered Brexit, unlike May's was unable to.

The alternative to all this would have been a Labour Government led by Corbyn, would they have resolved Brexit one way or the other, or dealt with the pandemic any better?

We'll never know but considering Corbyn and his mates (both MP's and on the NEC) were quickly 'dumped' by the rest of the Labour Party as soon as they decently could, hardly suggests unity within the party does it?

I may as well lob in the anti-semitism too which Corbyn let fester - hardly without sin is he?

As for Hislop, how can anyone make their mind up on his lampoon?

Maybe it is only me but does no one else question what they hear?

I mean is it really likely that a bunch of Russians walk into No. 10 Downing Street and bug the place and nobody thinks anything about it at the time???

Surely you have to have security clearance to get past the main gate let alone inside the building - that I would imagine would undertake extensive vetting or otherwise anyone could turn up and plant a bomb inside let alone a bug!

Also if it is true the company is a subby to Interserve, the it is Interserve and not the government that paid them.

Interserve may well have agreed a price with the government but even if it was for £2.6m if that total is correct, I doubt Megahertz who did the work received that.

Also I would have thought it would be standard practise for the security service at No 10 to continually be sweeping the building and surrounds for any form of breach in security such as listening devises?

I like Hislop he's funny and has a good brain in his head, he got his point across in a very telling way, but when you think in through a bit, it doesn't really stand up - or not at least in the way he makes it out to be.

A russian owned company which was formerly a British company, and who has an international track record of doing such work, was hired as a sub-contractor to a British owned company that had an existing contract with the government to undertake specialist work required by No. 10.

Presumably they quoted for the work and Interserve quoted the government what they (Interserve) would charge for the work to be done.  I assume everybody was ultimately happy with the eventual outcome and a contract was given by Interserve to Megahertz.

No doubt Megahertz had to supply details of all their employees who would need access to No 10 and all were checked out and vetted by the government security services.

It seems more than likely to me that those employed were British nationals, living in Britain, who probably have worked for the British firm (based in Ely, Cambridgeshire I believe - part of the Silicon Fen fwiw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Fen ) for more than a week or two.  I really doubt Igor and Vladimir flew in from the Kremlin to do the job, do you,  although that is clearly the impression you are giving.

It just doesn't seem to stack up when you think about it really does it?

The problem is that absolutely loads of people believe stuff like this to be true without any facts being proved whatsoever - seems you are one of them.

QAnon believers stormed the Capitol when it was in sitting, carry on like we are with all this social media stirring and inuendo and I wonder how long it will take for those who listen only to the voices from social media storm the Houses of Parliament?

Seems to be heading that way with the numbers of people who seem to believe as gospel everything on Twitter and Facebook!

I just don't understand why people are happy to swallow such stuff without seemingly a second thought - I mean you don't have to be Einstein to think 'really, a bunch of Russians have just bugged 10 Downing Street and MI5/MI6/James Bond (or whoever does these things) just let them walk in and do it???'.

Clever blighters these Russians. This story always makes me smile. Theremin was a genius.

https://hackaday.com/2015/12/08/theremins-bug/

boltonbonce wrote:Who did pay for it, Bob?

Marc Iles tells us that...

"a new stadium was sought and funded by former chairman Gordon Hargreaves".

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/16390241.macron-rebrand-universitys-historic-links-wanderers/

Interesting little piece from 1999 in the When Saturday Comes magazine, the only footy mag worth reading. Hargreaves gets a mention.

https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/32-Managers/4036-todd-man-out

I asked if you would kindly list things you would praise the government for......still waiting.....

The point of Hislop's little speech was to to mock the government's poor procurement skills, equally evident throughout the pandemic......not so much the Russian involvement, though that's clearly an issue.

Of course I don't believe everything I read, but, as in a trial, sometimes the evidence is compelling.  

I've just watched BBC News and virtually every item pointed to failures by the government....from lack of action on cladding and costs,  similar lack of action on the long-promised safety arrangements for disabled people living in flats, to willingness to unilaterally and illegally break govt agreements.

Worst? The issue of male violence against women and their right to be heard is met with the astounding decision to make new laws to silence (!) peaceful protest and grant policeMEN powers to physically MANhandle victims. At the same time the government cries out against such restrictions on freedom in China and Russia!

In a trial you hear both prosecution and defence.

God help the accused if you only bother to listen to the prosecution side of the story.

I've given you my answer about the government.  

Hislop can mock all he likes, doesn't mean he's right about everything though - I still wait for one piece of hard evidence of corruption, illegality, cronyism or anything else they've been accused of.

You'd think there would be absolutely tons of it considering its apparently been going on for over a year and people with axes to grind like Maughan would probably pay a kings ransom to get their hands on a smoking gun.

But no!

Nothing at all so far...

As for what is on the BBC News, you must have switched on late and missed the police being attacked at that nice peaceful protest in Bristol the injury to police officers, burning of police vehicles and the attempted storming of the police station...







Tweet from Labour MP for Bristol NW

The scenes in Bristol this evening are completely unacceptable. You don’t campaign for the right to peaceful protest by setting police vans on fire or graffitiing buildings. @ASPolice were on duty today to facilitate a peaceful protest not to deal with criminal behaviour. https://t.co/FKkGvQ9NkV

— Darren Jones MP (@darrenpjones) March 21, 2021

Tweet from Labour MP for Bristol W and Shadow Cabinet member,

This is absolutely unacceptable. The scenes of violence and direct attack on the police in Bristol city centre will distress most people including anyone who believes in defending the right to peaceful democratic protest. https://t.co/aVe3Q3Xqz8

— Thangam Debbonaire (@ThangamMP) March 21, 2021

Tweet fromLabour's Shadow Home Secretary

Awful, shocking scenes in Bristol.

There is no excuse whatsoever for this violence.

Thinking of those officers who have been injured, and their families, and wishing them a swift recovery. https://t.co/AoKUrD0yls

— Nick Thomas-Symonds MP (@NickTorfaen) March 21, 2021

Do you think all those 'rioting' have only bothered with one side of the evidence and found it compelling like you do too...?

Statement from the Mayor of Bristol -



Statement from Marvin Rees on today's protests

The violence and damage that have emerged from today’s protests are unacceptable and have nothing to do with the real work we are doing to tackle political, economic and social inequality.

I recognise the frustrations with the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. I have major concerns about the Bill myself,  which is poorly thought-out and could impose disproportionate controls on free expression and the right to peaceful protest. It also misses as much as it includes, such as measures that could reduce violence against women and girls.  We will raise our concerns.

Smashing buildings in our city centre, vandalising vehicles, attacking our police will do nothing to lessen the likelihood of the Bill going through. On the contrary, the lawlessness on show will be used as evidence and promote the need for the Bill.

This is a shameful day in an incredible year for Bristol. We have faced times of great confrontation particularly surrounding Black Lives Matter and the events that followed. We have had numerous protests. Our police, city representatives and I have been able to point out with pride that we have faced these moments of conflict without the physical conflict that others have experienced. Those who decided to turn today's protest into a physical confrontation and smash our city have robbed us of this.

What they have done has more to do with self gratification than it has to do with the protection and advancement of those of us from communities most likely to be marginalised and mistreated by our political and legal systems. For five years Bristol has built homes, fed its families, prioritised mental health, recruited black and Asian magistrates, organised work experience for our young people who are least likely to be able to get it. We have addressed poverty and introduced a whole new city approach to welcome in and support refugees and asylum seekers. That's what matters, That is what makes a difference. Smashing buildings, injuring police officers and burning cars will do nothing to support the children experiencing digital exclusion, or the women, men and children looking for refuge from domestic violence and abuse.

Speaking as someone himself - and whose brothers and sisters, along with our poorest communities - would be disproportionately likely to receive injustice, today’s actions do nothing to bring us closer to justice.

https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/revised-statement-from-marvin-rees-on-todays-protests


A real good statement I thought.

Again though, do you honestly think those 'rioting' have heard both sides of the story or do you think they just 'believe' all the shit that's been thrown against the government and they just accept it all as gospel?

To my mind fwiw I can see an attempt from some to create an 'us' and 'them' form of politics, similar to how it has got in America, where people prefer to stand behind Trump rather than stand with the opposition party - even when they 'know' they are right!

Politics as I keep saying has two rules, first to gain power, second once you have it, to keep it.

It's pretty clear to me that Labour can't beat the Conservatives in a straight fight at the polls, they need seats in Scotland that they used to rely on but are no longer there for them.

The only way back in the short term is to make the Tory's look unappealing to the masses so not to vote them in again.

Certainly seems to be working at the moment in Bristol!

I wonder what Maugham and his buddies thinks of the happenings in Bristol tonight...?

Utterly appalled or secretly thrilled?

I do hope it is the former as I am.

Sluffy wrote:

Marc Iles tells us that...

"a new stadium was sought and funded by former chairman Gordon Hargreaves".

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/16390241.macron-rebrand-universitys-historic-links-wanderers/

Iles is a two bit rabble-rouser and a bit of a twe*p imo, Sluffy, but there's plenty of twe*ps that can't grasp it.

boltonbonce wrote:Interesting little piece from 1999 in the When Saturday Comes magazine, the only footy mag worth reading. Hargreaves gets a mention.

https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/32-Managers/4036-todd-man-out

Thanks for that, Boncey. It is an 'interesting little piece' if you're interested in that kind of stuff.

I'm in no doubt that the BEN reported that Todd chucked it in over the Frandsen sale but I have no recollection of it being reported in the same context as Parkinson did.

Parkinson unfortunately does not deal with 'what happened next', which is a shame. This is what  he says he's doing now.

https://www.garyparkinsonmedia.com/about-me