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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Is there going to be a war?

Is there going to be a war?

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Angry Dad
BoltonTillIDie
Boggersbelief
Norpig
boltonbonce
okocha
wanderlust
Whitesince63
Sluffy
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101Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:46 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:...which sums up the absolute power of controlling the narrative.

As Brexit demonstrated, telling the truth is less important than controlling the narrative in order to gain and keep power and with the Remain campaign assuming that folk wouldn't believe that crap, and failing to bang home the key positive benefits of EU membership and underlining what we were going to lose by leaving, they lost a vote they really should have won easily.

In respect of Brexit that is total and utter bollocks.

Just because YOU believed Johnson and voted FOR Brexit doesn't explain why everyone else did.

The bottom line was simply this -

But the fact the public discounted so readily the advice of experts points to something more than just a revolt against the establishment. It suggested far more people felt left behind and untouched by the economic benefits of five decades of EU involvement being trumpeted.

Seven other reasons here too...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526

102Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:17 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

In respect of Brexit that is total and utter bollocks.

Just because YOU believed Johnson and voted FOR Brexit doesn't explain why everyone else did.

The bottom line was simply this -

But the fact the public discounted so readily the advice of experts points to something more than just a revolt against the establishment. It suggested far more people felt left behind and untouched by the economic benefits of five decades of EU involvement being trumpeted.

Seven other reasons here too...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526
So you are saying that the Remain campaign was as strong as it could and should have been?

What a load of rubbish Smile

103Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:04 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

A very interesting article in the Economist today about the economics and politics of China's relationship with Russia. Encouragingly, it implies the time isn't right yet for China to invade Taiwan or support Russia's war effort. Had to publish it in full to save you having to register, so apologies...

FOR MOST of those involved in Ukraine’s horrors, time is not on their side. Every hour brings new agonies for the Ukrainian government and people. Each passing day exposes, with greater clarity, the miscalculation of Russia’s leader, Vladimir Putin, when he launched a war of choice against a country he vastly underestimated. For America and its allies, admiration for Ukraine’s resistance is tempered by fears that it cannot last for ever, as Mr Putin escalates the killing.
In contrast, one great power, China, is a study in patience. Privately, its officials project confidence that time will deliver a post-war settlement that is greatly to China’s advantage. Since the invasion on February 24th, China has rebuffed repeated pleas from foreign governments that it work more actively to persuade Russia—its “rock-solid” friend—to put an end to the mayhem. It has gone no further than boilerplate calls for restraint by all parties. Western impatience is showing. On March 15th Spain’s foreign minister called on China to exert its “influence over Russia”.
China likes to present itself as a peace-loving giant opposed to foreign incursions. In Beijing and at the UN, its envoys were left visibly squirming in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, having dismissed American warnings of war as lies. Startled by Russia’s subsequent ineptitude on the battlefield, they peppered foreign interlocutors with questions about the fighting. Meanwhile, China maintained a stance of pro-Russian pseudo-neutrality, murmuring about the need for peace while echoing Mr Putin’s arguments that he is defending Russia against America and its expanding NATO alliance.
Now Western governments fear that China may have decided to “sit back and watch the disaster”, as a diplomat puts it. In their analysis, China expects Russian brute force to prevail within weeks. Only once Mr Putin has avoided humiliation, perhaps by taking the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv, can Chinese leaders be expected to be more assertive about the need for a ceasefire. Then they may offer to rebuild Ukraine’s shattered cities, hoping that China’s economic heft will oblige other countries to forget weeks of Chinese indifference to Russian crimes.
China has good reason to wish for an outcome that will satisfy Mr Putin. Humiliation for Russia’s leader—or worse still, his overthrow—would leave China’s president, Xi Jinping, personally exposed. Mr Xi signed a joint statement with Mr Putin less than a month before the invasion, declaring that “friendship between the two states has no limits”. It also expressed opposition to any further expansion of NATO and to American alliance-building in Asia. It described their own political systems as “genuine democracy” and portrayed efforts to promote the West’s version of it as a “serious” threat to global peace. It is a high-stakes year for Mr Xi, who hopes to secure a third term as Communist Party chief late in 2022, violating recent retirement norms. He can ill afford to be seen backing a loser.
But no matter how the war unfolds, China will treat its relationship with the Kremlin as a means of boosting Chinese power, not Russia’s. America has reportedly shared intelligence with allied governments, showing that Russia has asked China for drones, surface-to-air missiles and other military aid. China’s foreign ministry has called the reports “disinformation”. Mr Xi has no desire to share the blame for Mr Putin's war, "best friend" though he may be. Nor are there signs of China hastening to take advantage of a distracted West by attacking Taiwan, the island democracy of 24m people that China claims as its own. Unlike Mr Putin, who seems happy to stage dramatic challenges to the global order, Mr Xi appears more cautious.
One reason is economic. Bosses at China’s state-owned companies are watching the war with unease. Many have substantial businesses not just in Russia but also in Ukraine. COFCO, a government-owned food giant, counts Ukraine as an important base. China Merchants Group, a state firm, owns port terminals in Odessa, a Ukrainian city on the Black Sea coast that is on high alert for a Russian attack. In 2020 Kharkiv, a city in north-eastern Ukraine, agreed to buy 40 coaches for its metro system from China’s state-owned rail group, CRRC. With Kharkiv’s metro stations now filling with families sheltering from Russian attacks, the contract is in jeopardy.
Russia likes to tout its business links with China. On February 4th, while visiting Beijing, Mr Putin unveiled an oil-and-gas deal worth $118bn over many years, heralding it as part of a “pivot to the East”. China denounces Western sanctions against Russia. But its economic ties with Russia will become increasingly constrained.

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Oil and gas dominate the trade relationship. Russia is China’s third-largest supplier of gas. China bought nearly one-third of Russian exports of crude oil in 2020. But the recent energy deals between the two countries will hardly be a quick fix for Russia’s economic misery. China imported only 10bn cubic metres of natural gas from Russia in 2021 via the Power of Siberia, the sole pipeline that links the two countries, far short of the 175bn cubic metres imported by Europe. Even if China has appetite for the fossil-fuel exports cancelled by Europe, the relevant fields are not linked to China by a pipeline, making it difficult for the lost sales to be made up elsewhere, note analysts at Gavekal, a research firm.

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For most other Russian products, Chinese demand is minuscule. Europe and America sold about $490bn-worth of goods to China last year, six times what Russia sells to China. Weapons are the only Russian manufactured products that have strong appeal in China. After the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, a cash-strapped Russia saw benefit in maintaining close ties with China. It began selling its former cold-war adversary tens of billions of dollars' worth of surplus weaponry, including jets, submarines, helicopters, destroyers and missiles.

Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 20220319_CNC623

Those sales dropped off sharply after 2006, in part because Russia objected to blatant Chinese cloning and in part because China wanted more state-of-the-art weaponry, which the Kremlin was not prepared to sell. But Russia swallowed its misgivings when the West imposed sanctions on Russia to punish it for seizing Crimea in 2014. It agreed to sell China higher-quality equipment, including missile systems and fighters, on condition that China buy in bulk to allow Russia to make a decent profit before the technology was inevitably copied.
China may now demand more rapid transfers of advanced Russian equipment, especially submarine and air-defence technology. It may take advantage of Russia’s economic plight to press the Kremlin to withhold such weaponry from India and Vietnam. Both of these countries are China’s rivals, but hitherto this has not deterred Russia from selling them arms.
Western sanctions are making it difficult for Russia to buy technology. But it is doubtful whether China will make up the shortfall. Take, for example, the aviation industry: Russia is in desperate need of gear to keep it working. America alone sold Russia more than $880m-worth of aircraft, engines and parts in 2021. Hopes in Moscow that China would step in were dashed on March 10th when a Russian aviation official told local media that Chinese firms were now refusing to sell aircraft parts to the country. The aviation official has since been fired for making the disclosure.
The decision by Chinese firms to steer clear of Russia suggests a fear of penalties that America might impose on them should they do business with Russian firms or individuals that are being targeted by Western sanctions. China’s aviation industry is almost completely reliant on American technology to produce parts, says Richard Aboulafia of Teal, an aerospace consulting firm. Other potential tech suppliers in China are likely to share this anxiety about America’s possible response.
Russia may hope for greater Chinese involvement in its oil industry following the decision by Shell and BP, two Western oil majors, to pull out because of the invasion. Chinese firms would bring powerful financial backing, but they would not be able to match the Western firms’ technological expertise, says Ben Cahill of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies, a think-tank in Washington. And reliance on Chinese companies would give China “a lot of leverage over Russia”, says Mr Cahill. “They’ll probably drive a hard bargain.”
State media in China have touted the departure of Western multinationals from Russia as a business opportunity for Chinese firms. For some, it may be. One Chinese company, Xiaomi, already has a near-40% share of the smartphone market in Russia. It will probably benefit from the halt to Apple’s operations there. But Xiaomi’s sales in the country contribute just 3% of its global sales. The parlous state of Russia’s economy could discourage it from making new investments.
State-owned groups are said to be looking at possible acquisitions in Russia as Russian asset prices fall. Chinese banks could bolster the financing of yuan-denominated trade with Russia using CIPS, China's homegrown cross-border payments system. But Chinese firms are mindful of the risk to their reputations in other, more important markets should they pile into Russia. And Chinese lenders risk being hit with sanctions.
Even so, China’s Communist Party does see political benefits at home from the war: it has helped to fuel nationalist sentiment of a kind the party likes. Chinese officials have been fanning this with anti-American rhetoric, and by endorsing Mr Putin’s claims that Ukraine is a Nazi-infested puppet of the West. Official media and nationalist websites describe Russia as a victim of the same Western bullying that China has long endured. State television and China’s foreign ministry have repeated and amplified Russian disinformation, notably around Ukrainian laboratories alleged to be sinister Pentagon-controlled centres for bio-weapons research. Online, expressions of sympathy for Ukraine are often deleted by censors. They include a friendly interview with Ukrainian athletes at the Beijing Paralympics, which vanished after attracting too many views.
Asked to describe China’s strategic goal, diplomats at more than a dozen embassies in Beijing are in near unanimity. They say China wants a world order built around spheres of influence, with China in control of Asia, Russia wielding a veto over security arrangements in Europe and America pushed back to its own shores. If such an order is helped into existence by Russia’s war in Ukraine, so be it. But China’s overwhelming interest is in its own rise, and whether it will be blocked by America. As they see it, the main global contest is between a rising China and a declining America that is too racist and vicious to allow an Asian giant to become a peer.
Officials in Beijing respond to foreign horror at China’s stance on Ukraine with a mixture of swaggering bluster and blandishments. America is the object of bluster, with scholars and government advisers declaring that the war has exposed President Joe Biden’s weakness and his fear of Mr Putin’s nuclear arsenal. They predict that sanctions will fail to break Russia’s will—a point of keen interest to China, which knows it would face similar punishment were it to invade Taiwan.
In contrast, European governments with markets and technologies to which China wants access, notably Germany and France, are being targeted with a charm offensive. Europeans are being told that America wants to profit from the war, while Europe pays the price in soaring oil and gas prices and a flood of Ukrainian refugees. It is time for Europeans to seek more autonomy from America and deepen ties with China, runs the message from Chinese officials and academics.

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In reality, China stands to gain more than any other country from Russia’s isolation. Mr Xi and Mr Putin may share a bond as nationalist strongmen, who both feel under siege from America. Both are obsessed with the threat from democratic opposition movements, denouncing protests from Hong Kong to Moscow as American-controlled colour revolutions. But it is not so long since Russian leaders were intensely wary of growing dependent on China, a neighbour with an economy and population ten times larger than Russia’s.
Over the past 20 years Alexei Venediktov, the founder of Ekho Moskvy, an independent radio station recently closed by the Russian authorities, has conducted an informal but informative survey. Every time he would see Mr Putin, or one of his security advisers, he would name three threats—China, Islamic terrorism and NATO—and ask them to rank them. In Mr Putin’s first two presidential terms from 2000 to 2008, Islamic terrorism came at the top, followed by China then NATO. After 2008, the order changed: China was seen as the biggest threat, followed by NATO then Islamic terrorism. After Russia’s annexation of Crimea and pivot towards China, the order changed again: NATO, then Islamic terrorism, then China. For Mr Putin, the invasion of Ukraine is not just a bid to regain historic Russian territory. It is a war on the West, and China is the most powerful partner that Russia can see.
If Mr Putin is willing to strengthen China as a champion against America, Chinese experts see opportunities. “Before, the Russians just talked and talked about co-operation” in places such as the former Soviet republics of Central Asia, says Wang Yiwei of Renmin University. Russia still dominates this region, including through a trade zone controlled from Moscow, the Eurasian Economic Union. But maybe, says Mr Wang, Russia “will have to think about looking east now, and not worrying too much about Chinese influence”.
Russia may also have to give more leeway to China in the Arctic, suggests a Beijing-based diplomat. China sees that region as a new strategic frontier. It wants access to natural resources there, including fishing grounds. It would like to lay digital cables across it to connect Asia and Europe. There may be opportunities for Chinese firms to build ports along Russia’s northern coasts, as climate change opens new shipping lanes. “A weakened Russia will be more malleable,” predicts the diplomat.
China will retain close military ties with Russia. These have been central to their relationship in the post-Soviet era, with the two countries often staging military exercises together. To the consternation of some NATO countries, their navies have held manoeuvres in the Mediterranean and the Baltic. An exercise involving some 10,000 Russian and Chinese troops in north-west China last year was the first to feature a joint com­mand-and-con­trol centre and Russian troops using Chinese weapons.
But as the balance of power shifts ever further in China’s favour, many analysts expect that military exchanges will become increasingly attuned to China’s needs. America and its allies worry that Russia could help China to modernise and expand its nuclear arsenal, and to build a combined early-warning system covering both countries. "Nuclear weapons are one area where China thinks that Russia still possesses superior capabilities in certain areas, and possesses richer operational and training experience," says Zhao Tong of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Beijing.
Still, the two sides are far from establishing the kind of interoperability that America and its allies have built over decades. Their weapons systems aren’t widely compatible. Language differences are an obstacle too: few on either side speak both Chinese and Russian. They have no mutual defence treaty. Russia supports China’s position on Taiwan, but would probably look the other way if it attacks. Neither country wants to get involved in the other’s conflicts. Nor are they operationally ready for more than a joint counter-terrorist, humanitarian or evacuation mission.
One question facing Chinese leaders now is whether the benefits of such drills are worth the political costs, not just in the West, but among developing countries, many of which also exercise with China but have denounced Russia's invasion of Ukraine. China may prefer to postpone or scale down joint drills with Russia than to suspend them completely. Russian preoccupation with Ukraine may provide a convenient hiatus. Based on the timetable of recent years, the next big combined exercise should take place this summer or autumn. It is not clear whether there will be one.
As rockets rain down on Ukrainian cities, China’s diplomats have busied themselves managing the tricky optics of their wait-and-see approach to Mr Putin’s war. On March 16th Qin Gang, the Chinese ambassador to America, wrote in the Washington Post that: “Conflict between Russia and Ukraine does no good for China. Had China known about the imminent crisis, we would have tried our best to prevent it.”
Alas, diplomats note, there are no signs of such pious words being matched by Chinese actions, involving real pressure on Mr Putin to stop the killing. Russian savagery may be awkward for China, but a humiliating end to Mr Putin’s invasion would be still less welcome if it vindicates America and the West. Meanwhile China has begun lobbying against sanctions intended to make Mr Putin pay for his crime, especially if they might catch Chinese companies. “Neither war nor sanctions can deliver peace,” Mr Qin argued. While much of the world seeks an urgent end to Ukraine’s agonies, China is biding its time and thinking ahead.

104Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:37 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

In respect of Brexit that is total and utter bollocks.

Just because YOU believed Johnson and voted FOR Brexit doesn't explain why everyone else did.

The bottom line was simply this -

But the fact the public discounted so readily the advice of experts points to something more than just a revolt against the establishment. It suggested far more people felt left behind and untouched by the economic benefits of five decades of EU involvement being trumpeted.

Seven other reasons here too...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526
So you are saying that the Remain campaign was as strong as it could and should have been?

What a load of rubbish Smile

No mate I'm not saying anything actually, I've simply posted the post analysis of WHY the country voted FOR Brexit.

Just because you wish to continue to live your life in denial of the actual findings and blame everything on some barking mad, social media led, fake conspiracy theories is entirely up to you,

105Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:34 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

No mate I'm not saying anything actually, I've simply posted the post analysis of WHY the country voted FOR Brexit.

Just because you wish to continue to live your life in denial of the actual findings and blame everything on some barking mad, social media led, fake conspiracy theories is entirely up to you,

Surely people voted the way they did because more people were convinced by the Leave campaign than the Remain campaign?

So if Remain had a better campaign the vote may have been different n'est pas?

106Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:23 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

No mate I'm not saying anything actually, I've simply posted the post analysis of WHY the country voted FOR Brexit.

Just because you wish to continue to live your life in denial of the actual findings and blame everything on some barking mad, social media led, fake conspiracy theories is entirely up to you,

Surely people voted the way they did because more people were convinced by the Leave campaign than the Remain campaign?

So if Remain had a better campaign the vote may have been different n'est pas?

Eh???

Are you really being serious?

People vote for what they believe in not who had the best campaign!

Most people - and you are absolutely one of them - hold beliefs that have no relationship with what is the actual truth or facts of the matter are.

They hold those beliefs for many reasons, many of them simply emotional.

Many from their formative years, and keep them the entirety of their life irrespective how things may have changed significantly/completely in some instances, over their lifetimes.

Remain could have had the best campaign ever but there were simply too many people who believed that THEY had not benefitted from the best part of 50 years in the EU and simply voted to leave accordingly.

I remember just after the referendum it was reported (I posted it up on here at the time) that when Remain was doing their market research and brain storming with focus groups ahead of the referendum people were asked what benefits the EU had brought for them - and no one thought there had been any for them personally!

I even specifically pointed this out in bold and with large letters to you in my earlier post above today ffs!

You can have as slick a campaign as you like but if the majority of voters simply don't believe it to be the case they will vote for the shittiest campaign in the world as long as it represents the views they hold and believe in.

The link to the analysis I posted which you clearly haven't read is that the majority of people who voted were as always the elder generation, and that the majority of these people hadn't seen anything beneficial to them for being in the EU and believed things had actually got worse in terms of immigration and the inability of the government to take a action on this and other areas of concern as they were bound by the EU rules.

That's the simple and clear reason the analysis shows as to why Remain lost.

107Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:48 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Thank you Mr Tealeaves Smile

108Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:34 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:Thank you Mr Tealeaves Smile

Save your sarcasm, I just ignore such shit.

If you don't want to accept what the experts have stated based on their detailed research and factual empirical analysis, then that's entirely up to you.

However it does seem completely hypocritical of you complaining that people were too stupid to listen to what the experts were stating just how bad it would be if we were to leave the EU at the referendum when now you yourself are choosing to ignore the experts explanation of the reasons why the majority of people voted for Brexit and did not want to stay in the EU.

Then again seeing that you posted that you voted for Brexit then spend the next few years denying you did, nothing surprises me at all about your behaviour.



Last edited by Sluffy on Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typing and grammar errors)

109Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:30 am

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Seems to me that no one can know the minds of all or even the majority of voters, and futile to simply speculate (unless you enjoy having arguments with each other). 
About as futile as trying to predict the results of football matches....too many imponderables.
It's frankly pompous to claim to be able to speak for others.

110Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:55 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

okocha wrote:Seems to me that no one can know the minds of all or even the majority of voters, and futile to simply speculate (unless you enjoy having arguments with each other). 
About as futile as trying to predict the results of football matches....too many imponderables.
It's frankly pompous to claim to be able to speak for others.

Nearly as pompous as pretending to be some sort of health and well being practitioner of ten years standing yet gets so worked up over little old me posting on a tiny little footy forum!



111Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:08 pm

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

I’m afraid you’re wasting your time trying to discuss anything sensible about Brexit with Lusty Sluffy, he’s completely impervious to any suggestion that the majority made their minds up on their beliefs rather than be swayed by all the scare mongering lies of the Remain camp. It’s why I gave up on the Brexit thread because no matter how much you try and have a sensible and reasoned discussion,even when you accept there are negatives, you get no recognition of any advantages or potential advantages the other way. It’s strange really because I find Lusty one of the most open minded posters on several other threads. 

I suppose despite the fact Brexit is done and dusted, some Remain believers just can’t accept that we’re out and aren’t going back. I maintain that the reason that the majority of Leave voters were older is exactly because we did know what it was like before we joined and how much better life was. Of course things weren’t perfect but at least we had the opportunity to change and improve them which Globalisation, championed by France and Germany, removed from us. I’m not going to get back into all the old arguments but I’d just ask Lusty and other Remain stalwarts to accept where we are now  stop complaining and embrace the opportunities available, which are there if you look for them.

The Russia situation has forced the West to face up to who is now in control, not just on energy but on trade generally, the political and financial make up of the West, tied to Russia, China and the Middle East, many not friendly to us. Hopefully it will be the catalyst for a rethink about looking after your own, self sufficiency in areas such as many foods, energy and farming. I get sick of people talking this country down and whilst we may not be “Great Britain” as in the past, I still believe we are one of greatest and fairest nations on Earth and can still achieve so much.

112Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:44 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:I’m afraid you’re wasting your time trying to discuss anything sensible about Brexit with Lusty Sluffy, he’s completely impervious to any suggestion that the majority made their minds up on their beliefs rather than be swayed by all the scare mongering lies of the Remain camp. It’s why I gave up on the Brexit thread because no matter how much you try and have a sensible and reasoned discussion,even when you accept there are negatives, you get no recognition of any advantages or potential advantages the other way. It’s strange really because I find Lusty one of the most open minded posters on several other threads. 

I suppose despite the fact Brexit is done and dusted, some Remain believers just can’t accept that we’re out and aren’t going back. I maintain that the reason that the majority of Leave voters were older is exactly because we did know what it was like before we joined and how much better life was. Of course things weren’t perfect but at least we had the opportunity to change and improve them which Globalisation, championed by France and Germany, removed from us. I’m not going to get back into all the old arguments but I’d just ask Lusty and other Remain stalwarts to accept where we are now  stop complaining and embrace the opportunities available, which are there if you look for them.

The Russia situation has forced the West to face up to who is now in control, not just on energy but on trade generally, the political and financial make up of the West, tied to Russia, China and the Middle East, many not friendly to us. Hopefully it will be the catalyst for a rethink about looking after your own, self sufficiency in areas such as many foods, energy and farming. I get sick of people talking this country down and whilst we may not be “Great Britain” as in the past, I still believe we are one of greatest and fairest nations on Earth and can still achieve so much.
The point I made wasn't even about Brexit White - it was merely an example used to demonstrate the importance of controlling the narrative even if it includes lies and exaggeration as key Leave campaigners openly admitted they did after the event. There are many other examples e.g. the Trump campaign designed by the same people - I just happened to choose that one as it's one Brits can relate to.

Of course Sluffy missed the point again and got back onto his tired hobby horse, but we can ignore that. The important bit is how the Russian state are keeping their people onside which is normal for an autocracy, and how the West will never find a solution to Putin's imperialism until ordinary Russian folk are given the information to make their own minds up.
And the Chinese for that matter.

113Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:26 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Wander Lust clearly has personal issues that affect him 63.

I've had to deal with him on here for years and I've clearly been added to those issues he has and that's in quite a large part is why the forum is in the state it is.

A large part of his issues that directly manifest themselves on here is that he doesn't like to be seen or be proved to be wrong.

He will turn himself inside out, lie, mislead, abuse, ignore or whatever he feels it takes to avoid from being seen to be wrong.  In respect of Brexit for instance he posted on Wanderers Ways that he'd actually voted FOR Brexit at the referendum because he believed at the time what the Leave politicians were saying at the time but has realised since that he was mislead and lied to and has since that realisation hated them and Brexit with a passion - as exampled daily on here for years since!

Obviously he is free to do and think what he wants but the problem arises on here when he posts stuff that frankly is made up/not true and he takes issues when I (or occasionally others) call him out about it.

You've found out for yourself that his behaviour in respect of Brexit is obsessive and hate filled to say the least and many times I and others have repeatedly pointed out that it is now a fait accompli and he needs to move on from it - but he simply won't (probably his personal issues simply won't let him?).

His obsessiveness and hatred can clearly be seen on any threads involving the Tory Party and also anything relating to Boris Johnson.

Before your time 63, we had the same obsessive behaviour and hatred in respect of Anderson and it was at that earlier stage that I clearly became an issue to him as well simply because I knew from my own professional background that some/many of Wanderlust's outlandish claims about Anderson's financial behaviour when in control of the company were simply false - for instance Wanderlust was telling everyone that Anderson had raped the club to the tune of £168m and had everyone on here believing he had until I stood up to say that couldn't possibly be the case as the club accounts showed it to be in debt to over £100m at the time and all the clubs assets were secured against loans already.

He's never forgotten me doing that and ever since has tried his best to prove me wrong about anything on here.

If you don't have any issues with Wanderlust he can be fine, he seems to be quite popular on here with a number of people - I'm continually seen to be the bad guy - but you've experienced for yourself what he is like and behaves when he can't accept being wrong about something.

As for his claim that I missed the point (as I always do apparently...) how utterly and bizarrely ridiculous is that, seeing that I was the one in the first place who posted the comments about how people believe clear misinformation to be true and can't reason for themselves that something clearly isn't quite right in what they are being told.

Sluffy wrote:I really do sometimes wonder if some people (many people) simply aren't able to rationalise and process information and simply believe whoever they follow on social media?

Even if the bloke believes Putin is in the right surely you don't send in the tanks when you don't get what you want?

It's all becoming a bit George Orwell 1984 ish for my liking.

Clearly some are able to do that, hence those who have protested in Russia itself!

The bottom line though is that Wanderlust has issues over ever being seen to be wrong and carries a grudges.

We should need to be dealing with those issues on a tiny little footy forum like ours.

It's as simple as that.

114Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:53 am

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 200.gif?cid=a87a70e6302d5sw2ek7lldq0hsaek1w73nlisgvik9lifrqu&rid=200

115Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:09 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Putin hosted a celebration of the annexation of Crimea today and really whipped up the nationalist fervour in support of the war. Looks like he's setting the scene for the annexation of the southeast of Ukraine.

116Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:13 am

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

In fairness Sluffy, other than on Brexit I’ve never found Lusty anything less than a pleasure to discuss points with, much like yourself really. Yes he doesn’t like the Tories or Boris but even as a committed and long term Conservative member and voter, I can’t say I’m all that happy with him, or his far too influential missus!! I’d prefer him to be a little more constructive on Brexit now that it’s done but at the same time he’s fully entitled to take any position he wants and I respect that. I’d just like to be able to discuss points with an open mind about how we move forward rather than be stuck with the old fallacies of who said what on which side. I personally didn’t need any convincing to vote Leave as I’d suffered the EU since the original vote and just waited for a chance to undo the mistake. I never believed I’d get it but like most of my generation who regretted the decision, we weren’t going to let the young make the same mistake that we did those 50 or so years ago. 😊

117Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:52 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Attention dog owners! Don't forget to use the....
Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 275770293_5357977897546559_859495645275664624_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=a26aad&_nc_ohc=su0TMnw-N24AX8Rp54M&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1

118Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:41 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:In fairness Sluffy, other than on Brexit I’ve never found Lusty anything less than a pleasure to discuss points with, much like yourself really. Yes he doesn’t like the Tories or Boris but even as a committed and long term Conservative member and voter, I can’t say I’m all that happy with him, or his far too influential missus!! I’d prefer him to be a little more constructive on Brexit now that it’s done but at the same time he’s fully entitled to take any position he wants and I respect that. I’d just like to be able to discuss points with an open mind about how we move forward rather than be stuck with the old fallacies of who said what on which side. I personally didn’t need any convincing to vote Leave as I’d suffered the EU since the original vote and just waited for a chance to undo the mistake. I never believed I’d get it but like most of my generation who regretted the decision, we weren’t going to let the young make the same mistake that we did those 50 or so years ago. 😊
Thanks mate. And you can't have a discussion unless all perspectives are given an airing which I think we manage to do despite anything other than the mainstream pap being editorially jumped upon as an excuse to vent personal bile.
It's the 10th anniversary of Cameron's fateful meeting with Putin and so with that in mind, I'd like to post a link to an article that you will probably take issue with and I advise anyone who doesn't share similar concerns to mine about the legacy of Russian interference in British politics not to read it, let alone spout off another boring diatribe about my mental health etc. It's here.

Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 David-Cameron-and-Vladimir-Putin-e1646925559247-1308x918

119Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:23 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

:facepalm:

Conspiracy theory

A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[3][4][5] when other explanations are more probable.[3][6][7] The term has a negative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence.[8] A conspiracy theory is not the same as a conspiracy; instead, it refers to a hypothesized conspiracy with specific characteristics, such as an opposition to the mainstream consensus among those people (such as scientists or historians) who are qualified to evaluate its accuracy.[9][10][11]

Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth,[8][12] whereby the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than something that can be proven or disproven.[1][13] Some researchers suggest that conspiracist ideation—belief in conspiracy theories—may be psychologically harmful or pathological,[14][15] and that it is correlated with lower analytical thinking, low intelligence, psychological projection, paranoia, and Machiavellianism.[16] Psychologists usually attribute belief in conspiracy theories and finding a conspiracy where there is none to a number of psychopathological conditions such as paranoia, schizotypy, narcissism, and insecure attachment,[9] or to a form of cognitive bias called "illusory pattern perception".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#:~:text=A%20conspiracy%20theory%20is%20an,other%20explanations%20are%20more%20probable.

120Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 Empty Re: Is there going to be a war? Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:56 pm

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
Thanks mate. And you can't have a discussion unless all perspectives are given an airing which I think we manage to do despite anything other than the mainstream pap being editorially jumped upon as an excuse to vent personal bile.
It's the 10th anniversary of Cameron's fateful meeting with Putin and so with that in mind, I'd like to post a link to an article that you will probably take issue with and I advise anyone who doesn't share similar concerns to mine about the legacy of Russian interference in British politics not to read it, let alone spout off another boring diatribe about my mental health etc. It's here.

Is there going to be a war? - Page 6 David-Cameron-and-Vladimir-Putin-e1646925559247-1308x918
Very interesting Lusty. I got to the point where the writer considered Owen Jones to be “An influential journalist” and realised what a load of guff it was. I’m not saying there hasn’t been any political interference by the Ruskies, but then you could find the same attempts by the Chinese, Saudies and even the Yanks, it’s what politics is all about, trying to obtain influence.

The continued nonsense that Brexit was somehow the result of Russian influence is complete rubbish. We may well have left the EU but we haven’t left Europe and in fact we can now play an even bigger part in the defence of the West, indeed, Putin has himself by his actions managed to encourage Western governments to both increase defence spending and tighten the NATO group, so whatever his intentions might have been in Ukraine, they seem to have well and truly backfired.

The EU is a crumbling, bureaucratic mess and the sooner it sees sense and drops the Federal European dream and becomes a consolidated trading block of like minded sovereign countries, it will continue to fail. The cultures, histories, religions and more of all the countries involved will never sit comfortably together and the sooner the EU realises that the sooner a harmonious grouping can emerge. Who knows, even the UK could re-engage?

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