Is there going to be a war?

After hearing about our Government's insistence that Ukranian refugees will need to get a visa elsewhere before entering the country (as opposed to giving them visas on arrival) someone published an alternative version of Boris Johnson's "6 point plan":

1 Block Ukrainian refugees
2 Accept £2M from Russian donors
3 Knight KGB offspring
4 Allow oligarchs 30 days to move their assets
5 Redact Russia report
6 Save "big dog"

Struggling to find something to disagree with here TBH.
Today's new legislation will pass into law with all-party support but it will serve to highlight the Tory Government's close financial relationship with Russia and Russian meddling in British politics, it's inaction on the recommendations of the report and the hypocrisy of the recent statements of support for Ukraine and it's people in the light of what they've done.

I understand why the government refused to investigate Russia's involvement in the referendum and the general election against the advice of our security services, but how will they manage to stop it from biting them in the bum? Or don't the British people care?

wanderlust wrote:After hearing about our Government's insistence that Ukranian refugees will need to get a visa elsewhere before entering the country (as opposed to giving them visas on arrival) someone published an alternative version of Boris Johnson's "6 point plan":

1 Block Ukrainian refugees
2 Accept £2M from Russian donors
3 Knight KGB offspring
4 Allow oligarchs 30 days to move their assets
5 Redact Russia report
6 Save "big dog"

Struggling to find something to disagree with here TBH.
Today's new legislation will pass into law with all-party support but it will serve to highlight the Tory Government's close financial relationship with Russia and Russian meddling in British politics, it's inaction on the recommendations of the report and the hypocrisy of the recent statements of support for Ukraine and it's people in the light of what they've done.

I understand why the government refused to investigate Russia's involvement in the referendum and the general election against the advice of our security services, but how will they manage to stop it from biting them in the bum? Or don't the British people care?

The British public aren’t as one eyed as you Lusty so there’s no biting in the bum. I’m surprised you didn’t bring in the Russians being behind Brexit as well,you usually do. Tell you what, how about the Tories failing to take the necessary action against financial migrants in the channel as well, or does their inaction on that not fit in with your perspective?

Conclusively the Nasty Party, as always. Hard-hearted, self-serving liars.

okocha wrote:Conclusively the Nasty Party, as always. Hard-hearted, self-serving liars.

Could have been worse Oko, we could have had a Corbyn government in power taking the side of his communist mates?

Thousands fleeing from Ukraine.....and our government has offered just 50 visas so far....

I'm happy to trade all these migrants that keep coming over we have for the genuine Ukraines.

okocha wrote:Thousands fleeing from Ukraine.....and our government has offered just 50 visas so far....

The government have already said they’re working on that but they can’t just change things solely for Ukrainians without impacting on others so chill out. Ukrainians also have certain freedom of movement agreements in place with the EU so it’s not really a surprise more are moving there quickly is it?

Whitesince63 wrote:
The government have already said they’re working on that but they can’t just change things solely for Ukrainians without impacting on others so chill out. Ukrainians also have certain freedom of movement agreements in place with the EU so it’s not really a surprise more are moving there quickly is it?

"....working on that...." Doesn't for a moment excuse our slowness to act and merely emphasises Patel's typical insouciance and lack of empathy. 
Sunak's silence is deafening. Stark contrast with the general public's kind and generous response.

Whitesince63 wrote:
The British public aren’t as one eyed as you Lusty so there’s no biting in the bum. I’m surprised you didn’t bring in the Russians being behind Brexit as well,you usually do. Tell you what, how about the Tories failing to take the necessary action against financial migrants in the channel as well, or does their inaction on that not fit in with your perspective?

I don't consider any of this to be "one-eyed" White. Points 1 to 5 are facts, point 6 is an opinion and all the points were written by someone else - although as mentioned I find it hard to disagree with that perspective.
There are several possible reasons why the British public aren't up in arms about this hypocrisy one of the most obvious ones being that just like Putin, the government are controlling the narrative and that the public will do anything but see what's in front of their eyes as it would be tantamount to an admission that they've been conned.
As for "financial migrants in the channel" - are you having a laugh? That nonsense was debunked months ago.

Look I don't particularly want to discuss this with you on here as we have different perspectives on this but share common ground on other things - but it's difficult not to mention it when our so called leaders are hypocritical and duplicitous.

Hypocritical and duplicitous in your eyes Lusty, don’t include everyone in your totally biased viewpoint. Most reasonable people can see both points of view and if anything are more content with how the governments handling it than you seem to believe. Look, it doesn’t matter what government does for you unless it’s throw open the doors to one and sundry and how do you know that only 50 visas have been issued anyway? I totally agree that we should move as fast as we can on assistance for Ukrainians because we can all see and believe they are genuinely fleeing terror but we still need to ensure that we protect our own from individuals who may be taking advantage of the situation for less than genuine reasons. It’s well known that Russian sympathisers could be amongst those “fleeing” and we need to have that in mind.

Whitesince63 wrote:Hypocritical and duplicitous in your eyes Lusty, don’t include everyone in your totally biased viewpoint. Most reasonable people can see both points of view and if anything are more content with how the governments handling it than you seem to believe. Look, it doesn’t matter what government does for you unless it’s throw open the doors to one and sundry and how do you know that only 50 visas have been issued anyway? I totally agree that we should move as fast as we can on assistance for Ukrainians because we can all see and believe they are genuinely fleeing terror but we still need to ensure that we protect our own from individuals who may be taking advantage of the situation for less than genuine reasons. It’s well known that Russian sympathisers could be amongst those “fleeing” and we need to have that in mind.

I didn't mention 50 visas although that number was on the lunchtime news. Totally agree that there has to be some screening - there are already enough Russian sympathisers over here in the Tory party - but this is a humanitarian crisis where folk need food and shelter now, so why not put up the resources to screen them after that has been provided?

wanderlust wrote:Will Taiwan be next?

Seems like the Russkis have cleared it diplomatically with the Chinese - they would have to as China "rents" 5% of Ukraine's agricultural area - and considerately waited until the Winter Olympics is over before making their move, despite being ready for months - so it would come as no surprise if the Chinese made a Russian-sanctioned move on Taiwan within the next year or so. 

Quid pro quo sanctioning in the face of the spread of capitalism is not beyond imagination.

China says it's "double standards conflate Ukraine with Taiwan"

China and Russia will become the world's most powerful bloc the way it seems to be heading.

Apparently Putin is dying from bowel cancer?

karlypants wrote:Apparently Putin is dying from bowel cancer?

Let’s hope not Karly, otherwise he could be liable to do anything. If it is true, let’s hope those closest to him reign him in?

Once again Lavrov is reiterating threats against countries that help Ukraine with the veiled threat of a nuclear war whilst the very real threat of biological weapons is surfacing in Ukraine.
Surely somebody has to ask him why he is willing to gamble with the assured destruction of every city in Russia?
A lot of posturing from Lavrov, but I'm concerned that the negotiators are not putting him back in his box.

wanderlust wrote:Once again Lavrov is reiterating threats against countries that help Ukraine with the veiled threat of a nuclear war whilst the very real threat of biological weapons is surfacing in Ukraine.
Surely somebody has to ask him why he is willing to gamble with the assured destruction of every city in Russia?
A lot of posturing from Lavrov, but I'm concerned that the negotiators are not putting him back in his box.

The problem is Lusty, I don’t see any serious negotiators. This war is devastating both Russia and Ukraine as well as affecting every other Western country and somewhere along the line only a negotiated settlement will resolve the problem. 

I personally have to say that Western Leaders are making things worse by ramping up the rhetoric against Russia, backing themselves into a corner which only fuels Putins resolve and lengthens the war. I blame the West for this war as much if not more than Putin. He has been saying for a decade that Russia will not tolerate NATO forces on his border and that Ukraine must remain a buffer between East and West, yet the EU have constantly courted Ukraine for membership despite the fact that Russia was building up its military capability.

Since the West reacted so abysmally to the invasion of Crimea, it surely only encouraged Putin to go further yet we did nothing to discourage him. Equally, all European governments were reducing expenditure on defence further encouraging Putin. Whilst our armed forces were attending inclusivity courses, Russias were training to fight. Our totally woke actions are now coming home to roost, quite apart from the reliance on Russian oil, gas and precious metal resources. Putins offer for peace seems the best for all concerned and it will only be pride that prevents it and continues to cost lives and destruction.

Whilst the West has done a decent job of controlling the narrative outside Russia, the Kremlin is still running things within the country which is why the vast majority of Russians support Putin's actions.
Whilst anti war protesters have no platform, and media hacking attempts haven't amounted to much, there seem to have been a bunch of resignations and famous Russian media people "going on holiday".

Don't think much will change until the Russian media is liberated TBH.

I've got a neighbour who is Italian and he has a Romanian wife, nice couple they are too.

Anyway the other day I asked after his wife, and if her family back in Romania were worried about events in next door Ukraine to which he told me all the news we see is fake, Putin is the good guy and Biden is the warmonger!

Tbh I wasn't really surprised as he's the same bloke who believed Covid was all some sort of big plot to kill us off or something or other.

I just thanked him about putting me right on the war as I was getting a bit worried as to what it might escalate to.

Now I don't believe all that is reported to us to be 100% spot on but I do believe there are Russian tanks rolling around the country and people are being killed.

I really do sometimes wonder if some people (many people) simply aren't able to rationalise and process information and simply believe whoever they follow on social media?

Even if the bloke believes Putin is in the right surely you don't send in the tanks when you don't get what you want?

There wasn't any point reasoning with him, I tried with Covid but simply just wasted my breath.

It's all becoming a bit George Orwell 1984 ish for my liking.

Sluffy wrote:I've got a neighbour who is Italian and he has a Romanian wife, nice couple they are too.

Anyway the other day I asked after his wife, and if her family back in Romania were worried about events in next door Ukraine to which he told me all the news we see is fake, Putin is the good guy and Biden is the warmonger!

Tbh I wasn't really surprised as he's the same bloke who believed Covid was all some sort of big plot to kill us off or something or other.

I just thanked him about putting me right on the war as I was getting a bit worried as to what it might escalate to.

Now I don't believe all that is reported to us to be 100% spot on but I do believe there are Russian tanks rolling around the country and people are being killed.

I really do sometimes wonder if some people (many people) simply aren't able to rationalise and process information and simply believe whoever they follow on social media?

Even if the bloke believes Putin is in the right surely you don't send in the tanks when you don't get what you want?

There wasn't any point reasoning with him, I tried with Covid but simply just wasted my breath.

It's all becoming a bit George Orwell 1984 ish for my liking.

...which sums up the absolute power of controlling the narrative.

As Brexit demonstrated, telling the truth is less important than controlling the narrative in order to gain and keep power and with the Remain campaign assuming that folk wouldn't believe that crap, and failing to bang home the key positive benefits of EU membership and underlining what we were going to lose by leaving, they lost a vote they really should have won easily.

I've often wondered why the NCI doesn't have either the power or the will - not sure which - to take control of  Russian satellite signals or simply broadcast an alternative narrative in Russia so that people can at least see both sides of the story. Instead, it's left to a few hackers to disrupt the state media and whilst they might occasionally break through, they are terrible at messaging - their core competence is computing.