JD Vance - the next President after Trump?

Sluffy wrote:It is exactly as I keep saying...


Politics = POWER

And there are ONLY two rules -

Rule 1 - Do whatever you have to do, to get in to power.

Then,

Rule 2 - Do whatever you have to do to STAY in power.


It really is how it works.

Rule 1.5 - Raise as much money as you can as you can take it with you when you leave power.

observer wrote:

Sluffy wrote:It is exactly as I keep saying...


Politics = POWER

And there are ONLY two rules -

Rule 1 - Do whatever you have to do, to get in to power.

Then,

Rule 2 - Do whatever you have to do to STAY in power.


It really is how it works.

Rule 1.5 - Raise as much money as you can as you can take it with you when you leave power.

It's not about money - look at any autocrat, dictator, war lord. etc - throughout history - everyone of them had more money than they could ever spend it ten lifetimes.

It's the raw power and control that drives them - and they never willingly let go of it.

Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Do you think that Putin, Xi, Ali Khamenei, Kim Jong Un, etc will ever give up their absolute power and retire somewhere nice to spend their stolen millions?

Sluffy wrote:

It's not about money - look at any autocrat, dictator, war lord. etc - throughout history - everyone of them had more money than they could ever spend it ten lifetimes.

It's the raw power and control that drives them - and they never willingly let go of it.

Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Do you think that Putin, Xi, Ali Khamenei, Kim Jong Un, etc will ever give up their absolute power and retire somewhere nice to spend their stolen millions?

Again, right and wrong. In America, they can keep their hard earned PAC money. Congresspeople get a lifetime pension after one term (imagine the rest of us doing that at work)? So for the lower echelon, they can walk away with a lifetime pension, and all that PAC money. For the upper echelon, you are so correct. Lord Acton gave you this most accurate quote... and yes, you are also correct, the only retirement for dictators will be six feet under. But for the majority of low level bureaucrats and politicians, walking away with a pot of gold suffices in lieu of power. For someone like Trump, it is the power and the grifting together... how much can he charge the Secret Service to stay at his hotel? The answer... way over rack rate! Every politico from any other country who wants to do business with Trump had better pay the freight at his hotel as well. But I'll bet he will sell you a bible or golden sneakers if you want them or not!

Thanks Obs.  I am not familiar with the US system, I was speaking more generally about politics being about power, in the UK for instance we don't operate a PAC system and so no one here gets into politics to get rich by one.

MP's I believe do receive a pension when they lose their seat, I suspect that is common practice in most western democracies(?).

That's not to say our politicians are more honest and scrupulous than any other politicians across the world, the expenses claim scandal showed how many were happy to take monetary advantage of the then system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

Politics (power) is - rightly or wrongly - what most folk do.

In nearly every circumstance I can think of there is always someone who has more power and/or influence over someone else - in fact it is probably the very first thing we ever learn - a baby cries for attention, children learn to manipulate their parents to get what they want, we carry that on throughout our life.  

I don't find it in the least surprising that is eventually brought in to the political sphere which ultimately can lead to 'absolute power' and 'absolute corruption'.

It isn't a new thing - the Romans did it - I recommend the BBC I Claudius series based on Robert Graves books - it is on BBC iplayer if you can access it from the US

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b006mhmk/i-claudius

...and similarly the War of the Roses did the same in the UK - again I recommended the BBC's coverage of Shakespeare's plays in their Hollow Crown production, again on BBC iplayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b07bqgjn/the-hollow-crown

The tragedy here is that in the west we were eventually able to establish a democratic free world (or the best there's been so far for most of us) and that now seems at threat by the seemingly suicidal actions of the Republican Party in general to follow Trump no matter where it may lead, simply to win power for themselves.

Hopefully common sense will ultimately prevail but things certainly don't look like that will happen any time soon unfortunately.

Sluffy wrote:Thanks Obs.  I am not familiar with the US system, I was speaking more generally about politics being about power, in the UK for instance we don't operate a PAC system and so no one here gets into politics to get rich by one.

MP's I believe do receive a pension when they lose their seat, I suspect that is common practice in most western democracies(?).

That's not to say our politicians are more honest and scrupulous than any other politicians across the world, the expenses claim scandal showed how many were happy to take monetary advantage of the then system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parliamentary_expenses_scandal

Politics (power) is - rightly or wrongly - what most folk do.

In nearly every circumstance I can think of there is always someone who has more power and/or influence over someone else - in fact it is probably the very first thing we ever learn - a baby cries for attention, children learn to manipulate their parents to get what they want, we carry that on throughout our life.  

I don't find it in the least surprising that is eventually brought in to the political sphere which ultimately can lead to 'absolute power' and 'absolute corruption'.

It isn't a new thing - the Romans did it - I recommend the BBC I Claudius series based on Robert Graves books - it is on BBC iplayer if you can access it from the US

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b006mhmk/i-claudius

...and similarly the War of the Roses did the same in the UK - again I recommended the BBC's coverage of Shakespeare's plays in their Hollow Crown production, again on BBC iplayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b07bqgjn/the-hollow-crown

The tragedy here is that in the west we were eventually able to establish a democratic free world (or the best there's been so far for most of us) and that now seems at threat by the seemingly suicidal actions of the Republican Party in general to follow Trump no matter where it may lead, simply to win power for themselves.

Hopefully common sense will ultimately prevail but things certainly don't look like that will happen any time soon unfortunately.

You asked a very good question about why the intellectuals support Trump.  Today on public radio there was a very pertinent conversation about the transformation of JD Vance from liberal to ultra maga.  One writer espoused the theory (which I agree with incidentally) that the left went way too far to the extreme and many centrists are now choosing Trump over the far left. Another writer said the corporations want Trump to lower their taxes and do away with regulations. Both are true. Of course, there must be an equilibrium to do that. Trump said in his long boring acceptance speech (filled with outrageous lies), that he would do just that... no mention of how he would pay for it. You have to guess he would do the same thing he did in his first term... raise the debt by trillions. After Elon Musk started donating millions to Trump, the Donald said "We have to make life good" for him and other "smart people."  QED

Let’s just face it,the West is toast. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Trump, Meloni or Farage, we’ve gone so far away from basic common sense that it’s no longer recoverable. The other side of the coin is exactly the same and equally as bad whether it’s Biden, Starmer, Blair or in the past Merkel with her ridiculous open arms immigration madness. The problem is there is no conciliation any more just confrontation. Every issue no matter how divisive can be settled if the parties involved are prepared to give a little but sadly neither are these days. Their view is always right because it’s their view so it must be. Unfortunately the art of debate and consensus are over and whether it’s left or right they’re both equally as bad. Basically the world as we knew it is completely fooked.

Don't you consider that you are part of that problem W63 because you certainly don't seek any conciliation - you just want things how YOU want them to be.

Or more correctly you want them to be what you've been brainwashed in to wanting them to be by the extreme right wing views on wanting to destroying the state and and then controlling the masses?

A return to a modern day serfdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

observer wrote:You asked a very good question about why the intellectuals support Trump.  Today on public radio there was a very pertinent conversation about the transformation of JD Vance from liberal to ultra maga.  One writer espoused the theory (which I agree with incidentally) that the left went way too far to the extreme and many centrists are now choosing Trump over the far left. Another writer said the corporations want Trump to lower their taxes and do away with regulations. Both are true. Of course, there must be an equilibrium to do that. Trump said in his long boring acceptance speech (filled with outrageous lies), that he would do just that... no mention of how he would pay for it. You have to guess he would do the same thing he did in his first term... raise the debt by trillions. After Elon Musk started donating millions to Trump, the Donald said "We have to make life good" for him and other "smart people."  QED

I can understand a push back over all the Woke crap - I'm one who can't stand it myself - if people want to be gay, transsexual, or whatever then let them be - but I don't want to be swamped with reading about it all the time, I've never seen how taking the knee could ever change anyone from being a racist into not being one (does anyone take the knee anymore - does that mean there is no longer any racist in the world anymore?), I can't see how saying sorry that my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad made a slave of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad - it wasn't me that did it and I'm sure if he had lived to today, he would apologise too as the world knows better now.

So saying that I've had my fill of such shit, it certainly wouldn't push me into the Trump camp though - would it you (I doubt it) - so there's something more than that as to why the emergency ward surgeons are at Trump rallies.

I suspect it is more to do with racial and social reasons.

Perhaps they don't want to vote for a party that largely is supported by the black and Hispanics populations and which provides aid to the poor and vulnerable in society.

Maybe the thinking by the surgeon is that I've worked and studied hard to be a surgeon so why would I want my tax dollars go to support those who add nothing to the country and continue to be a drain on it - type thing.

Trump would reduce my taxes, stop the immigrants and stop spending on those who haven't worked hard and studied and made something of themselves.

That's my line of reasoning why he might have been there - makes more sense to me than simply being pissed off with all the woke crap.

Sluffy wrote:

I can understand a push back over all the Woke crap - I'm one who can't stand it myself - if people want to be gay, transsexual, or whatever then let them be - but I don't want to be swamped with reading about it all the time, I've never seen how taking the knee could ever change anyone from being a racist into not being one (does anyone take the knee anymore - does that mean there is no longer any racist in the world anymore?), I can't see how saying sorry that my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad made a slave of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad - it wasn't me that did it and I'm sure if he had lived to today, he would apologise too as the world knows better now.

So saying that I've had my fill of such shit, it certainly wouldn't push me into the Trump camp though - would it you (I doubt it) - so there's something more than that as to why the emergency ward surgeons are at Trump rallies.

I suspect it is more to do with racial and social reasons.

Perhaps they don't want to vote for a party that largely is supported by the black and Hispanics populations and which provides aid to the poor and vulnerable in society.

Maybe the thinking by the surgeon is that I've worked and studied hard to be a surgeon so why would I want my tax dollars go to support those who add nothing to the country and continue to be a drain on it - type thing.

Trump would reduce my taxes, stop the immigrants and stop spending on those who haven't worked hard and studied and made something of themselves.

That's my line of reasoning why he might have been there - makes more sense to me than simply being pissed off with all the woke crap.

When you are correct, you are correct! Immigration here, as in Europe, will be the number one talking point of the Teflon Don... but the Republicans voted against legislation that Biden supported to stop the flow. As to taxes, I live in a high tax state... about 50-55% of income goes to taxes... and an additional 9% is paid when you buy something. Of course if you are a billionaire, there are loopholes on top of loopholes. How much tax a wealthy person owes in a given year is a complex tapestry threaded with exemptions, deductions, credits, and obscure loopholes you’ve never heard of. The ideal is to owe zilch. If that sounds impossible to achieve, just look at the leaked tax returns of the wealthiest Americans that nonprofit news site ProPublica analyzed in 2021: Over several years, billionaires Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Michael Bloomberg, among others, paid no federal income taxes at all. - Vox

The basic reality is that attempting to "Build The Wall" or "Stop The Boats" is about as likely to succeed as King Canute's order to the tide. In truth immigration has been going on forever and likely will until there are no humans left at all. 

When people speak of "Britishness" I laugh since we have been a 'mongrel' race for literally thousands of years. Even the supposedly original Celtic Britons came here from Northern and Eastern Europe, then later the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Goths, Gauls, Visigoths all came to Britain. In 1066 we got the Normans and we of course had thousands of Scandinavian 'Vikings' running around as well. 

There is no such thing as a 'pure' Briton of any description and frankly it's an insult to intelligence to suggest otherwise. As for America, well, the entire country was built on immigration and a large part of its agriculture (their largest single industry) is STILL dependent on immigrants to function. Even without discussing the topic of slavery the reality is America has ALWAYS needed immigrants and frankly always will. 

Farage and Trump speak of countries that never existed in times that never happened outside the confines of Hollywood or Ealing Studios. And too many of us believe them or silently allow them to peddle this fiction.