Brexit negotiations

Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

They are part of EFTA which means they pay towards the EU, whilst getting no money back in form of grants, and they have to follow all EU main principles such as freedom of work, people and movement.  Therefore to say they are not in the EU is correct but they pay to be part of the single market and allow EU laws.   Why would they need to fight in the streets when they have access to the largest single market I the world and thanks to a low cost base actually make a financial success?

UK has the best option of all European countries, with regards to the EU especially with the many opt-outs we have which no other European country enjoys, and we are no throwing back in their faces - just how do you think other trading nations will feel trading with us knowing that we can break contracts at any time - UK will be a country not to be trusted with trade,

I think Vince Cable makes a good point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40842017

71, I like the cool, calm, and collected way you put forward your points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but its nice to see.

Regarding Vince Cables remarks, I think he's using very emotive language that doesn't really help, however, having said that, he does make a some good points. I don't believe we, the older generation, have deliberately 'shafted' the younger ones, and oddly enough, some, myself included, feel that we will all be better off in the longer term. I have two daughters, 30 and 37, and I wouldn't deliberately throw a spanner in the works of daily living, if it was to severely affect them, but I would stand up for what I feel is better in the long term, and my age gives me a different perspective on the methods and outcomes. Buying into the 'one size fits all' logic of the EU just doesn't sit right with me.

gloswhite wrote:71, I like the cool, calm, and collected way you put forward your points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but its nice to see.

Roughly translated - 

71, you're talking bollocks. You have constructed your bullshit in a very articulate way, but it's bullshit all the same. 

I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".

58, have you thought of a job in diplomacy ? (just like 71) 

xmiles wrote:I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".

XM, If we all thought like that, we wouldn't do anything. With my daughters, one is for Brexit, and one against. The one for, says nothing, whilst the one against, like me, is depressed about the speed and direction of the discussion, but still feels its right.
Sounds like you're on a downer this morning XM, cheer up, were going to win today 

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".

XM, If we all thought like that, we wouldn't do anything. With my daughters, one is for Brexit, and one against. The one for, says nothing, whilst the one against, like me, is depressed about the speed and direction of the discussion, but still feels its right.
Sounds like you're on a downer this morning XM, cheer up, were going to win today 

Beating Leeds would certainly cheer me up!

Anybody surprised?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830

Not surprised at all, blame Thatcher Lite for calling an unneccessary election and weakening her own position and the country as a whole.

xmiles wrote:Anybody surprised?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830

On the day that true figure for UK payments to the EU is released (less than half the number that appeared on the Leave campaign bus) it's surprising that they are blaming the poor start to negotiations on the Cabinet disagreeing on what we actually want. 

Could there be a more compelling case for the Government to admit that Brexit is an absolute shambles? As well as a disgrace.

After confirming last week that the UK will be leaving the customs union, UK negotiators now proposing a "temporary" customs union during Brexit.

Assuming that the penny still hasn't dropped, presumably they think this will be to buy some time whilst they seek to negotiate 27 separate tariff deals?

I don't see why they can't try to secure a bloc deal covering all of the EU whilst they are sat at the table with them. Technically that would mean we have left the customs union in line with the current political dogma but would have the advantage of minimising the impact of the coming administrative nightmare for British exporters. Obviously the best way forward would be to stick with the excellent deals we already have but that wouldn't be politically acceptable to the Tories so I guess the nation will just have to take the economic hit in order to secure the Tories' political posture.

Starting to look as though the "mood music" of the Brexit negotiations is changing. The Government have already softened their stance since negotiations began and the press gave a fair amount of coverage to the more obvious positional changes where the timescale for change has been stretched to accommodate "transitional arrangements" in e.g. ECJ jurisdiction and leaving the Single Market.

Naively, IMO, the negotiating team worked out a load of compromises and embodied them in the proposals they handed to the EU earlier in the week.

Barnier's response which was basically that the Brits haven't a clue seems to have been passed over relatively lightly by the press so I'm wondering if they are still missing the point?

Today, both sides announced that they felt more progress needs to be made but surely the media should have picked up on what lies behind Barnier's general negativity towards the UK proposals i.e. 

1. Timescale: The EU is under no political pressure to conclude a deal with the UK - ever. Why should they? Things are going really well for them both economically and politically - it's the Brits who have the weight of an expectant nation on their shoulders and a timescale which I imagine Barnier will milk to death.
2. Need for a trade deal: The EU doesn't need a new trade deal with the UK anywhere near as much as the UK needs a new trade deal with them. The existing trade deal works well enough for the EU (as it does for the UK IMO) however the Government have committed to tearing up the agreements and starting again so again it is only the UK negotiators that are under pressure while the EU wouldn't give a monkeys if nothing changes.
3. Political capital/PR: All Barnier has to do is to say that they want progress and they want it soon but the Brits are stalling things with their silly demands and that will get him all the political capital he needs in Europe. Behind the scenes he can stall progress until the cow's come home and will always have the get out of jail card and the moral high ground as far as Europeans are concerned. On the other hand, our Government has to make things happen and is on a hiding to nothing as they are dependent on the goodwill of the EU negotiators to conclude any deal - it's effectively out of their control. The negotiators have already watered down what they promised Leave voters and it's going to get a lot worse as time drags on so their political capital is going to take a battering.

Why is it that the British press are very quick to defend every dilution of what was promised and yet fail to pick up on the fundamental underlying point i.e. the UK has an impossibly weak bargaining position - trying to negotiate with someone who isn't arsed about reaching a conclusion or striking a deal?

Just a thought: do you not think the direction these talks are going in was not seen by the government, and that is why, pre-election cock-up, the PM was saying that we would take a hard exit ? By doing so they removed the wriggle room from the table and put the emphasis on the Europeans to at least talk to us. At the moment we have squandered any moral high ground or, in truth, a strong negotiating stance. However, at the end of all this, the EU will still have to come to the table, as they will suffer as much as us, if they continue as they are. We have shot ourselves in the foot, and the EU is gaining political points, but it won't count for anything eventually.

Be interesting to see how Macron will handle labour reforms. He was going to crack a nut but now appears to be back pedalling a bit. Interesting times ahead.

gloswhite wrote:Just a thought: do you not think the direction these talks are going in was not seen by the government, and that is why, pre-election cock-up, the PM was saying that we would take a hard exit ?

If we want any kind of agreement whether it's hard, soft or semi-tumescent and regardless of whether it relates to trade tariffs, border control, fishing rights, legal governance, international financing, cooperative projects in e.g. the sciences or military, Gibraltar/Brits abroad or whatever - we can't just decide what we want and expect to get it without compromise.  

Moreover the point that seems to be missed in the British media is that the EU doesn't need to do anything or agree anything so they can demand whatever they want from the UK and it doesn't matter a monkey's about May and Davies' political posturing or the vanity of the media.

At the end of the day, the UK will get whatever the EU is gracious enough to give us - and if Barnier's tone is anything to go by it will be a right royal shafting.

gloswhite wrote:

JAH wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR

Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.

Hey old timer! Steady there on the throwing around of insults! It was a copy and paste on the fly, but they are all facts of the things that that the EU have given us, not what we are losing. I think maybe your Brexiteer rage still hasn't subsided as it didn't take long to pop your top on this one! Anyway, you Brexiteers don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant! 

(Bit of internet schooling for you Glos) If I was shouting I would've put exclamation marks at the end of each line. I didn't and I wasn't.

So Glos, you represent the prime Brexiteer demographic. You were born after the war, so had no experience of the struggles during it and then joys after it when Europe came together in the celebration of peace. Your generation has taken all the pensions, all the houses and among other things you have now taken away our generation's right to live and work in any country in the European Union. You and your Brexiteer demographic are all takers and have always taken and don't want to give anything back. A generation of bitter people, not all mind, but the largest majority demographically speaking. The interesting thing is your parents generation and those only 15 years older than you generally voted to remain in Europe because they can remember why the EU was first put together and they know the pain of a divided Europe from first hand experiences.  

Well according to the ONS figures you and your Brexiteer ilk will be dead in 20 years or less and our generation, if we haven't gone back into Europe by then anyway, will be able to re-run the referendum without your poison retoric involved. The Daily Mail are already panicking as they can't reach the internet generation or influence them through the pedaling of the usual right wing lies. Do you think anyone will ever trust a slogan on the side of a bus again?????? 

In the meantime ponder this......

The result of the Referendum was the following:

Leave   17,410,742           51.89%
Remain 16,141,241           48.11%

According to current estimates there are 1.4million British ex-pats in Europe who, criminally, were not allowed to vote in the Referendum. A Referendum where the outcome directly affects their everyday life. They have seen '000s wiped off the value of their pensions by the collapse of our currency off the back of the vote and put their healthcare now at risk of being withdrawn. 

Had they been allowed to vote, the result of this stitch-up job by the right wing press and the Tory party would not have been passed and we would still be a part of the largest free-trading block in the world.

I think May has shot herself in the foot again. 
The Government have approached big business to ask them to endorse Brexit which under normal circumstances would be a sensible move and would give the Government's PR machine something positive to work with.
Unfortunately, big business has exactly the same problem with Brexit as the rest of us do i.e. we don't know what we're getting into and so far the signs have not been good, so whilst a few tame companies might endorse the Government, most won't - at least not until some progress is made. And without huge concessions from the Government it's unlikely progress will be made, so it's shaping up like another bad move, made worse by the fact that the letter was released into the public domain and now they're denying it (because they didn't get the response they were hoping for?)

Article (BBC):

Downing Street has approached some of the UK's biggest companies, asking them to give public backing to the government's approach to Brexit.
Business leaders are being asked to sign a letter expressing support, a copy of which has been seen by BBC business editor Simon Jack.
However, some leaders said they are reluctant to support a strategy that lacks clarity.
Number 10 has declined to comment on the existence of the letter.
The letter asserts that now is the right time for employers to work with government to make it a success.
It also says the signatories welcome the government's commitment to negotiating an interim period after the formal exit date and would bring their expertise in international trade to bear on the government efforts to create future relationships outside the EU.
Several potential signatories contacted by the BBC said that while they supported the idea of bringing government and business closer together, they expressed reluctance to give unconditional support for a government negotiating strategy which they felt lacked clarity.
As one FTSE chairman told our business editor, it is dangerous to ask a question when you are not sure what the answer will be.

JAH wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

JAH wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR

Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.

Hey old timer! Steady there on the throwing around of insults! It was a copy and paste on the fly, but they are all facts of the things that that the EU have given us, not what we are losing. I think maybe your Brexiteer rage still hasn't subsided as it didn't take long to pop your top on this one! Anyway, you Brexiteers don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant! 

(Bit of internet schooling for you Glos) If I was shouting I would've put exclamation marks at the end of each line. I didn't and I wasn't.

So Glos, you represent the prime Brexiteer demographic. You were born after the war, so had no experience of the struggles during it and then joys after it when Europe came together in the celebration of peace. Your generation has taken all the pensions, all the houses and among other things you have now taken away our generation's right to live and work in any country in the European Union. You and your Brexiteer demographic are all takers and have always taken and don't want to give anything back. A generation of bitter people, not all mind, but the largest majority demographically speaking. The interesting thing is your parents generation and those only 15 years older than you generally voted to remain in Europe because they can remember why the EU was first put together and they know the pain of a divided Europe from first hand experiences.  

Well according to the ONS figures you and your Brexiteer ilk will be dead in 20 years or less and our generation, if we haven't gone back into Europe by then anyway, will be able to re-run the referendum without your poison retoric involved. The Daily Mail are already panicking as they can't reach the internet generation or influence them through the pedaling of the usual right wing lies. Do you think anyone will ever trust a slogan on the side of a bus again?????? 

In the meantime ponder this......

The result of the Referendum was the following:

Leave   17,410,742           51.89%
Remain 16,141,241           48.11%

According to current estimates there are 1.4million British ex-pats in Europe who, criminally, were not allowed to vote in the Referendum. A Referendum where the outcome directly affects their everyday life. They have seen '000s wiped off the value of their pensions by the collapse of our currency off the back of the vote and put their healthcare now at risk of being withdrawn. 

Had they been allowed to vote, the result of this stitch-up job by the right wing press and the Tory party would not have been passed and we would still be a part of the largest free-trading block in the world.

JAH,

Just got back from holiday, to see this drivel. Who the fuck do you think you are to speak to me like this ? Because I voted for Brexit, you think I deserve all this inane spouting. Grow up, and stop blaming others for your inadequacies, and don't patronise me, you dick.
I may be an 'old timer', as you rather childishly put it, but at least I've made a contribution, which, by the sounds of it, you have yet to do. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, and blaming people who have paid their way, with a full working life, planning ahead, and having to get on with it through both good and bad times.