Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!!

Can we not just declare ourselves bankrupt and start again?

My mate's a builder and he's done it a few times.

Simples.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Why does anyone give a shit? Football clubs of our size and stature simply don't go out of business. If the debt was £300m would anything really change?

I wish we would go out of business, but I'm not that lucky.

 they may not go out of business but look at Portsmouth for what can happen to  a club with massive debts.

Norpig wrote:
 they may not go out of business but look at Portsmouth for what can happen to  a club with massive debts.

We're going the same way as Portsmouth because we've had a succession of awful managers, not because we are skint. There are plenty of clubs doing ok that don't have a pot to piss in.

Norpig wrote:

Natasha Whittam wrote:Why does anyone give a shit? Football clubs of our size and stature simply don't go out of business. If the debt was £300m would anything really change?

I wish we would go out of business, but I'm not that lucky.

 they may not go out of business but look at Portsmouth for what can happen to  a club with massive debts.

 
I Used to go and watch Stockport County in the eighties when I couldn't afford away games look where they are now !

 

Natasha Whittam wrote:Why does anyone give a shit?

We give a shit because we are passionate about our club. We have seen what has happened to teams like Leeds, Portsmouth and Coventry and we genuinely care about the future of our great club.

Breadman wrote:Can we not just declare ourselves bankrupt and start again?

My mate's a builder and he's done it a few times.

Simples.

I'd imagine that would be the worst case scenario, we could end up like Pompey, but at least the club would still be there.

Is this another way of the club telling the fans we won't be signing anyone in January?

Reebok Trotter wrote:
We give a shit because we are passionate about our club. We have seen what has happened to teams like Leeds, Portsmouth and Coventry and we genuinely care about the future of our great club.

Leeds are above us with a much better squad - I'm happy to go the same way as them.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Leeds are above us with a much better squad - I'm happy to go the same way as them.

Good for you.

Just had a briefest look at the accounts.....

Firstly Burnden Leisure is registered at Companies House and as such is classed as a separate entity from owner Eddie Davies. Therefore is doesn't matter how much Eddie is worth as Burnden Leisure is completely separate from his own personal wealth.

MIL is, I assume, referring to the Investment Funding company that is based in The Bahamas or British Virgin Islands, ahich again I am presuming, Eddie has a personal stake in.

Also lets not forget that Eddie does not pay the same rate of personal tax as any other "millionaire" who lives in the UK as he lives in the Isle of Man which is a tax-haven.

Finally lets not forget that due to various Data Protection laws one can only guess at Eddie's personal wealth due to his own assets and what he has owned previously - WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT REAL WEALTH EDDIE ACTUALLY HAS - therefore a good educational guess is that it is much more that popular speculation - unless one has access to all his financial accounts!!!!!

From the accounts there are 4 exceptional costs which have attributed to the rise in the debt:-
1. Buying out De-Vere's with regards to the Hotel
2. Buying the Sports Educational company
3. Removing Coyle and his team and bringing in Freedman and his team
4. New catering contracts

What, also, hasn't helped are the new sponsorships which are approximately 70% lower in value than the previous ones. Then of course there are the mundane costs such as utlities, like for everyone else, have gone up in value and costing much more now than 12 or even 18 months ago.

With regards to MIL, again, as I have stressed before they will probably have many financial products with which to help with the investment of BUrnden Leisure - such as revolving facilities, ForEx, long-term loans etc etc etc which also help with the spread of the cost and the lower interest rates which Eddie seems to have gained for the company.

But when you consider what the assets we do have such as prime land, the Arean, The Stadium, The Hotel, The Academy, the new office block and educational block (when completed) - add all those up and the financial worth still outstrips what we owe! (But fair enough the debt cant continue to spiral upwards like it currently is doing).

What did surprise me in the cost cutting out of the auxillary staff only 3 have left during the last financial year!!!! I thought that would have been quite a few more, but why bring in new Directors??? Also , if anything, they now need to look at their more peripheral costs such as the continuation of the funding of the "Match Day" buses and the one-off bargain bonanaza cheap ticket matches as well as the pre-match drinks hall/venue.

To be fair, if you take out the exceptional costs (Hotel, Educational company and Coyle sacking) then the debt is actually just fractionally higher than last year (not even by a million!!!).


Yes it looks bad, from from a detailed popint of view looking at all areas then its not as bad as one thinks - its just the large numbers that look frightening!!!

You're missing the point - clubs just don't go out of business these days. Leeds owed millions and millions, yet just a few years later they're in a healthy position and doing better than us.

The same will happen to us. Although we'll need to sack Freedman if we're going to stay in this division for much longer.

I might be wrong, but is the bulk of our debt owed to Moonshift investments? And Moonshift have to give us 10 years notice to recall any debt owed to them? 

It is worrying if Eddie does die, will the debt die with him? I can't see his family writing off the huge debt.

Reebok Trotter wrote:What would happen if heaven forbid, Uncle Eddie, were to pop his clogs? I'm sure I read somewhere that neither his son or daughter have any interest in football.

I have quoted quite a few times before but whether he pops his clogs or whether he loses his interest in the club and wants out there is a 10-year claw-back clause in the facilities which means that as soon as its announced the number has to be returned we have 10 years to fully repay it

To be fair I am not sure whether its 10 or 15 years (I need to review the material but currently at work so don't have the info at hand) but we do have time to pay it back!!!

bwfc71 wrote:Just had a briefest look at the accounts.....

Firstly Burnden Leisure is registered at Companies House and as such is classed as a separate entity from owner Eddie Davies.  Therefore is doesn't matter how much Eddie is worth as Burnden Leisure is completely separate from his own personal wealth.  

MIL is, I assume, referring to the Investment Funding company that is based in The Bahamas or British Virgin Islands, ahich again I am presuming, Eddie has a personal stake in.

Also lets not forget that Eddie does not pay the same rate of personal tax as any other "millionaire" who lives in the UK as he lives in the Isle of Man which is a tax-haven.

Finally lets not forget that due to various Data Protection laws one can only guess at Eddie's personal wealth due to his own assets and what he has owned previously - WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT REAL WEALTH EDDIE ACTUALLY HAS - therefore a good educational guess is that it is much more that popular speculation - unless one has access to all his financial accounts!!!!!

From the accounts there are 4 exceptional costs which have attributed to the rise in the debt:-
1.  Buying out De-Vere's with regards to the Hotel
2.  Buying the Sports Educational company
3.  Removing Coyle and his team and bringing in Freedman and his team
4.  New catering contracts

What, also, hasn't helped are the new sponsorships which are approximately 70% lower in value than the previous ones.  Then of course there are the mundane costs such as utlities, like for everyone else, have gone up in value and costing much more now than 12 or even 18 months ago.

With regards to MIL, again, as I have stressed before they will probably have many financial products with which to help with the investment of BUrnden Leisure - such as revolving facilities, ForEx, long-term loans etc etc etc which also help with the spread of the cost and the lower interest rates which Eddie seems to have gained for the company.

But when you consider what the assets we do have such as prime land, the Arean, The Stadium, The Hotel, The Academy, the new office block and educational block (when completed) - add all those up and the financial worth still outstrips what we owe! (But fair enough the debt cant continue to spiral upwards like it currently is doing).

What did surprise me in the cost cutting out of the auxillary staff only 3 have left during the last financial year!!!!  I thought that would have been quite a few more, but why bring in new Directors???  Also , if anything, they now need to look at their more peripheral costs such as the continuation of the funding of the "Match Day" buses and the one-off bargain bonanaza cheap ticket matches as well as the pre-match drinks hall/venue.

To be fair, if you take out the exceptional costs (Hotel, Educational company and Coyle sacking) then the debt is actually just fractionally higher than last year (not even by a million!!!).


Yes it looks bad, from from a detailed popint of view looking at all areas then its not as bad as one thinks - its just the large numbers that look frightening!!!

I say this without any sarcasm - that was a good post. Thanks.

Mr Amos - in these accounts do the club have to value the playing squad?

That would be a laugh if they do.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc71 wrote:Just had a briefest look at the accounts.....

Firstly Burnden Leisure is registered at Companies House and as such is classed as a separate entity from owner Eddie Davies.  Therefore is doesn't matter how much Eddie is worth as Burnden Leisure is completely separate from his own personal wealth.  

MIL is, I assume, referring to the Investment Funding company that is based in The Bahamas or British Virgin Islands, ahich again I am presuming, Eddie has a personal stake in.

Also lets not forget that Eddie does not pay the same rate of personal tax as any other "millionaire" who lives in the UK as he lives in the Isle of Man which is a tax-haven.

Finally lets not forget that due to various Data Protection laws one can only guess at Eddie's personal wealth due to his own assets and what he has owned previously - WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT REAL WEALTH EDDIE ACTUALLY HAS - therefore a good educational guess is that it is much more that popular speculation - unless one has access to all his financial accounts!!!!!

From the accounts there are 4 exceptional costs which have attributed to the rise in the debt:-
1.  Buying out De-Vere's with regards to the Hotel
2.  Buying the Sports Educational company
3.  Removing Coyle and his team and bringing in Freedman and his team
4.  New catering contracts

What, also, hasn't helped are the new sponsorships which are approximately 70% lower in value than the previous ones.  Then of course there are the mundane costs such as utlities, like for everyone else, have gone up in value and costing much more now than 12 or even 18 months ago.

With regards to MIL, again, as I have stressed before they will probably have many financial products with which to help with the investment of BUrnden Leisure - such as revolving facilities, ForEx, long-term loans etc etc etc which also help with the spread of the cost and the lower interest rates which Eddie seems to have gained for the company.

But when you consider what the assets we do have such as prime land, the Arean, The Stadium, The Hotel, The Academy, the new office block and educational block (when completed) - add all those up and the financial worth still outstrips what we owe! (But fair enough the debt cant continue to spiral upwards like it currently is doing).

What did surprise me in the cost cutting out of the auxillary staff only 3 have left during the last financial year!!!!  I thought that would have been quite a few more, but why bring in new Directors???  Also , if anything, they now need to look at their more peripheral costs such as the continuation of the funding of the "Match Day" buses and the one-off bargain bonanaza cheap ticket matches as well as the pre-match drinks hall/venue.

To be fair, if you take out the exceptional costs (Hotel, Educational company and Coyle sacking) then the debt is actually just fractionally higher than last year (not even by a million!!!).


Yes it looks bad, from from a detailed popint of view looking at all areas then its not as bad as one thinks - its just the large numbers that look frightening!!!

I say this without any sarcasm - that was a good post. Thanks.

It was a good post.   

Natasha Whittam wrote:You're missing the point - clubs just don't go out of business these days. Leeds owed millions and millions, yet just a few years later they're in a healthy position and doing better than us.

The same will happen to us. Although we'll need to sack Freedman if we're going to stay in this division for much longer.

It's not great comparing yourselves to Leeds though is it?

Leeds were getting 20 odd thousand on in League 1 and Bolton would probably have just half the turnover as Leeds.

You are unlikely to see Portsmouth or Coventry in the Championship or Premier League for a long time.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Mr Amos - in these accounts do the club have to value the playing squad?

That would be a laugh if they do.

They haven't valued the players individually but as a net value.

2012 Net value of the squad was £49,750,000
2013 Net value of the squad is £14,100,000

A big difference!!!

2012 60 Players on the books
2013 59 Players on the books

Also noticed that BUrnden Leisure own the Freehold of the land which makes the asset worth even more than if it was Leasehold

I really can't see this working........

Recent stories have claimed QPR and Blackburn in particular could face huge fines pushing £60m if they are promoted.

FFP wrote:Championship clubs are permitted losses of £8m (£5m funded by shareholders) in 2013-14

Championship sanctions start in January 2015

Copper Dragon wrote:I really can't see this working........

Recent stories have claimed QPR and Blackburn in particular could face huge fines pushing £60m if they are promoted.

FFP wrote:Championship clubs are permitted losses of £8m (£5m funded by shareholders) in 2013-14

Championship sanctions start in January 2015

The question has to be asked whether that is the club is allowed only £8million or whether its the holding/parent company!!!

As it is Bolton Wanderers FC is a subsidary of Burnden Leisure - therefore, in reality, Wanderers could have losses of £8million whilst the parent company could have losses of £160million! Mainly because they are treated as separate entities in the financial world!! If you look at the EOY accounts even they advise that a few subsiadries are NOT included in the final accounts - therefore teh debt of Burnden Leisure could actually be les, or more, than the £168million!!!