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So much for parliamentary democracy

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Cajunboy
wessy
bryan458
finlaymcdanger
boltonbonce
Norpig
gloswhite
Angry Dad
Hipster_Nebula
karlypants
Natasha Whittam
okocha
16 posters

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201So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 11:36

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

xmiles wrote:There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with Angry Dad or karly. They don’t seem capable of it.
Nor is there any point trying to discuss anything you fervent remainers have locked in your brain. Lets be honest, we really are deadlocked on here.
In fairness, I believe, no matter how we try, that we are all so frustrated in our personal expectations, that we are often responding just for the sake of it, and not moving forward or backwards one iota. 
Were all sitting in the trenches, often hoping against hope, that all this nonsense will come to an end, but in our favour. It has now spread to personal abuse, both here and elsewhere, and usually groundless. Parliament and all politicians are behaving abominably, by making and changing laws as they go along, ganging up against the Executive, and even considering forming a temporary government in order to circumvent a problem that is very much a result of their own actions, whilst showing intransigence in accepting any opportunity to move forward. 
Its chaotic, and considering  MP's attitudes, rather disgraceful, and I personally feel that the damage being done will last much longer than the effects of Brexit.
I read an article that said the current crop of politicians are no longer fit for the job, and have rubbished any credibility or respect the public had for them, and we should now vote in a whole lot of new members, hopefully with a fresh approach and new ideas and practices. I have to agree with the sentiment.

202So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 11:50

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I've stopped commenting on this thread because, let's face it, we've made our marks in the sand, and we're not going to cross them.
We face each other like two warring armies, ready for the battle ahead. Whatever the outcome, the field will be left strewn with casualties, the saddest casualty of all being the respect we once had for the mother of all parliaments.

203So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 12:01

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

gloswhite wrote:Bloody hell, all our prejudices are on show now. This really is getting too involved, with apparently none of us prepared to give much credence to others when they don't agree completely with our own views. A lot like our politicians really, who who condemn for the same responses.
It's not about "prejudices" Glos unless you apply that to the process by which we give greater creedence or significance to a range of particular facts over another set of facts.
In my case, I think the important facts are those relating to the power and influence of specific right wing global corporations meddling with governments and elections, in order to further their own interests.
And if you watch the Great Hack you will clearly see that organisations such as Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer's Cambridge Analytica who have a track record of working for said global corporates have done that in numerous countries and done it successfully by manipulating the electorate. In fact that they boasted about how they "fixed" elections in Australia, India, Kenya, Malta and Mexico as well as the USA and UK.

Which brings me to the second area of interest which is can an electorate be manipulated through psychographic targeting?
One of the hardest things for people to recognise - and more importantly, admit to themselves - is that they have had their opinion altered by external forces.
We all want to believe that we make our own minds up and any admission that we have been manipulated is generally viewed as an admission of weakness - so any organisation that sets out to manipulate a vote is on a winner because those they manipulate will be in total denial.

So at a basic level, why is the advertising industry one of the largest sectors in the world? Why would they spend billions and billions on trying to persuade people to buy, invest - or vote - if it didn't work?
The answer is simple - it does work, especially if they target the market, and all the scientific study and the day to day reality of their success backs that up.

When they take those basic principles to the next level by having more information about their target market then ever before in human history - and in the case of the 40 million+ British Facebook users right down to pictures of what they had for lunch, let alone what they like, dislike and are frightened of - they know exactly what buttons to press for what people to get a reaction.

So when you need a swing of just over a million votes to win a referendum and amongst the 40 million you know that 3 million of them have never voted previously and you know that another 7 million have previously expressed the view that they are frightened about increased immigration, you can get that extra million by targeting just 10 million of them with fake messages like "The EU is about to give 75 million Turks free access to the UK" - which they later withdrew after the seeds had been sown. And that was just one of the 300+ targeted messages sent to different segments of the Facebook community during the run up to the referendum.

As we speak, Cummings is running over 300 targeted messages on Facebook to try to shore up the backing for Boris and even though Facebook have closed down a few because they were downright lies, he can always put up more because as it stands, there is no penalty for lying on t'internet.

I wouldn't describe my genuine concern for this situation as a "prejudice" and as much as the next man I don't like the idea of being susceptible to being sold to but I do know I like Toblerones and if I walk past a shop which has them in the window and a big sign that says 3 for a quid I'll be in there like a shot.
And I'll be very pissed off if I go in to buy them and they say that offer only applies for customers who spend over £100.

204So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 12:46

Guest


Guest

Agreed nobody's budging, but it doesn't excuse making unfair allegations then refusing to back down when faced with the facts.

Glos - the answer to my question is clearly no, you don't think the courts got it wrong. So essentially you're discrediting someone, not because they're wrong (she was proved right on both counts) but because she holds a different position to your own.

To me, that's a worrying position to take from someone I consider entirely reasonable in most matters and (in my opinion) you should back down from it - because you're clearly not up for defending it.

205So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 14:22

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

T.R.O.Y wrote:Agreed nobody's budging, but it doesn't excuse making unfair allegations then refusing to back down when faced with the facts.

Glos - the answer to my question is clearly no, you don't think the courts got it wrong. So essentially you're discrediting someone, not because they're wrong (she was proved right on both counts) but because she holds a different position to your own.

To me, that's a worrying position to take from someone I consider entirely reasonable in most matters and (in my opinion) you should back down from it - because you're clearly not up for defending it.
I wasn't discrediting her for getting the court verdict in her favour, (not twice, only once). I just don't like her attitude and was curious as to her motives for only applying her legal team to high profile cases. If she was as concerned for the British public as she makes out, why haven't we seen more of her or her organisation ?
Its very kind of you to think I'm entirely reasonable in most matters, and I'd like to reciprocate, and say that I genuinely don't give a fuck for you or your condescending attitude. 
Lets not bother each other in the future, and keep our personal comments to ourselves, shall we ? I don't need to be annoyed on a daily basis by an obnoxious, self righteous, Mr. Perfect.

206So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 14:39

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

boltonbonce wrote:I've stopped commenting on this thread because, let's face it, we've made our marks in the sand, and we're not going to cross them.
We face each other like two warring armies, ready for the battle ahead. Whatever the outcome, the field will be left strewn with casualties, the saddest casualty of all being the respect we once had for the mother of all parliaments.
So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Unknow15

207So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 14:47

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

I only comment occasionally on this thread because yes we all know where we stand on this issue. However what I do find frustrating is the refusal or inability of brexiteers to offer any rational reason for voting leave.

Equally irritating is their refusal to understand that we live in a parliamentary democracy and what that means.

208So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 15:00

Guest


Guest

gloswhite wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:Agreed nobody's budging, but it doesn't excuse making unfair allegations then refusing to back down when faced with the facts.

Glos - the answer to my question is clearly no, you don't think the courts got it wrong. So essentially you're discrediting someone, not because they're wrong (she was proved right on both counts) but because she holds a different position to your own.

To me, that's a worrying position to take from someone I consider entirely reasonable in most matters and (in my opinion) you should back down from it - because you're clearly not up for defending it.
I wasn't discrediting her for getting the court verdict in her favour, (not twice, only once). I just don't like her attitude and was curious as to her motives for only applying her legal team to high profile cases. If she was as concerned for the British public as she makes out, why haven't we seen more of her or her organisation ?
Its very kind of you to think I'm entirely reasonable in most matters, and I'd like to reciprocate, and say that I genuinely don't give a fuck for you or your condescending attitude. 
Lets not bother each other in the future, and keep our personal comments to ourselves, shall we ? I don't need to be annoyed on a daily basis by an obnoxious, self righteous, Mr. Perfect.

I'll ignore the insults, if you're wound up about being questioned that's your problem not mine.

You don't like her attitude, basically means you don't think it's fair for anyone to air a view that is not in keeping with your own hardline Brexit stance. And that's the sort of approach we need to get past in this country, it's too polarised and we need compromise on both sides.

209So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 15:08

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

T.R.O.Y wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:Agreed nobody's budging, but it doesn't excuse making unfair allegations then refusing to back down when faced with the facts.

Glos - the answer to my question is clearly no, you don't think the courts got it wrong. So essentially you're discrediting someone, not because they're wrong (she was proved right on both counts) but because she holds a different position to your own.

To me, that's a worrying position to take from someone I consider entirely reasonable in most matters and (in my opinion) you should back down from it - because you're clearly not up for defending it.
I wasn't discrediting her for getting the court verdict in her favour, (not twice, only once). I just don't like her attitude and was curious as to her motives for only applying her legal team to high profile cases. If she was as concerned for the British public as she makes out, why haven't we seen more of her or her organisation ?
Its very kind of you to think I'm entirely reasonable in most matters, and I'd like to reciprocate, and say that I genuinely don't give a fuck for you or your condescending attitude. 
Lets not bother each other in the future, and keep our personal comments to ourselves, shall we ? I don't need to be annoyed on a daily basis by an obnoxious, self righteous, Mr. Perfect.

I'll ignore the insults, if you're wound up about being questioned that's your problem not mine.

You don't like her attitude, basically means you don't think it's fair for anyone to air a view that is not in keeping with your own hardline Brexit stance. And that's the sort of approach we need to get past in this country, it's too polarised and we need compromise on both sides.
This is a silly conclusion. Lets not continue with this eh?

210So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 15:17

Guest


Guest

You're welcome to do whatever you want, I can honestly tell you im not trying to wind you up. 

If we can't even discuss each others viewpoints how can anyone expect to find a way out of this. It's ridiculous.

211So much for parliamentary democracy - Page 11 Empty Re: So much for parliamentary democracy Sat Sep 28 2019, 23:21

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff

T.R.O.Y wrote:You're welcome to do whatever you want, I can honestly tell you im not trying to wind you up. 

If we can't even discuss each others viewpoints how can anyone expect to find a way out of this. It's ridiculous.
It's very unlikely Bolton Nuts will be asked to intervene.

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