2024 Euros

Southgate needs to wake the fuck up.

Talk today of England changing to a back 3. I don't have an issue with that as such but we still don't have anyone who can play LWB. I bet Captain Cautious plays Saka there 

England deserved to go out simple as that. 

Yet again Southgate gets the easiest set of games one could ever hope for. 

I actually think it’s rigged.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:England deserved to go out simple as that. 

Yet again Southgate gets the easiest set of games one could ever hope for. 

I actually think it’s rigged.

I haven't even been watching it. Good game,good game? Not from England anyway.

I’ve watched a lot and it’s been a pretty a dull Euros so far. Only Spain have looked anything like a team worthy of winning it and I suspect the winner of the Spain v France semi will take the prize.
At least it looks like Southgate is finally making an attempt to improve us today but unless Kane, Foden, Bellingham, Rice and Stones wake the fuck up I don’t fancy us to progress any further. We should at least be contesting the final with the squad of players we have but we’ve been nothing but shambolic so far.

Is it going to come home at long last?

Sluffy wrote:Is it going to come home at long last?

I didn't see it, I was watching Bonanza. The Cartwright's cook, Hop Sing, threatened to quit. It all got a bit hairy.
I had a few bob on us at 7/2, so I'm hopeful. Not wasting my time watching it though.

Sluffy wrote:Is it going to come home at long last?

I hope so Sluffy it’s long past time it did and with the luck we’re having who can say but based on football I’d say Spain look favourites. The only thing I can say for certain is just how boring it’s been overall with so many teams now adopting this sterile walking football. With so many talented and exciting players in our team you just feel that if we let them loose they’d rip it up but sadly that’s not the way it is today and individualism is secondary to formality!!

Quite agree that football has become a disappointing spectacle whereas cricket has taken steps to entertain with more attacking intent. (N.B. Mr. Southgate et al.)

The tennis at Wimbledon, on the other hand, has always been riveting to watch. The skill levels nowadays are absolutely extraordinary.

Worth saying, too, that the levels of sportsmanship and decency in both cricket and tennis have largely become edifying examples to admire and follow. 

(N.B.Politicians searching for reasons as to why the public have become disenchanted with them need to wake up to the fact that the public are disgusted by their appalling standards of behaviour and integrity....as one party has realized and has set about remedying!)

IMHO...

England have some very talented players and some relative weaknesses compared to other international teams. Some of our top players do very well playing with foreign teammates under foreign managers for the most part - but playing in an all-English team is a different kettle of fish altogether.

It's a team game and as such a range of skillsets and balance is required to win. To make a cricket analogy you can have the world's top 3 best batsmen but if the team is not as strong in other areas you still lose. Balance is essential for success.

England have had top players many times before and successive managers have tried unsuccessfully to shoehorn them into the same team - it isn't easy.

Our defence is little more than passable albeit makeshift and I question whether we have enough ball winners and water carriers of sufficient quality although we do have a few and although we have some great attacking players I question whether their skillsets are complementary. Certainly getting in each other's way at times and there's a national willingness not to sacrifice top attackers for less flamboyant players to balance the team as other nations sometimes do.

We are probably around the 10th best team in the world on balance, given who we've played and how we've played in the last few years and as such I think we've overachieved under Southgate, but the English media in their unique way have managed to overhype the Premiership, the players and the national team to the extent that folk are expecting far more than is realistic - to the point where everyone is an armchair manager with "better ideas", me included.

Sure we've had a theoretically easy run to the semi-final but that's probably our true level in European competition anyway - contenders but not favourites - and if we go out now it will have been a success.

But now we're here it's a good opportunity to go one step further against another team that have overachieved and I'll be delighted if we get past the Dutch.

The media won't though - having hyped up England's individuals rather than looked at the team as a whole, they'll be out for Southgate's blood despite what he's achieved.

Thought i was watching a different game at HT when Lineker and the rest were saying how well they were playing! England are getting through in spite of Captain Cautious not because of him.

If Shaw is fit enough he needs to start against the Dutch, the left side of the team has been poor.

wanderlust wrote:IMHO...

England have some very talented players and some relative weaknesses compared to other international teams. Some of our top players do very well playing with foreign teammates under foreign managers for the most part - but playing in an all-English team is a different kettle of fish altogether.

It's a team game and as such a range of skillsets and balance is required to win. To make a cricket analogy you can have the world's top 3 best batsmen but if the team is not as strong in other areas you still lose. Balance is essential for success.

England have had top players many times before and successive managers have tried unsuccessfully to shoehorn them into the same team - it isn't easy.

Our defence is little more than passable albeit makeshift and I question whether we have enough ball winners and water carriers of sufficient quality although we do have a few and although we have some great attacking players I question whether their skillsets are complementary. Certainly getting in each other's way at times and there's a national willingness not to sacrifice top attackers for less flamboyant players to balance the team as other nations sometimes do.

We are probably around the 10th best team in the world on balance, given who we've played and how we've played in the last few years and as such I think we've overachieved under Southgate, but the English media in their unique way have managed to overhype the Premiership, the players and the national team to the extent that folk are expecting far more than is realistic - to the point where everyone is an armchair manager with "better ideas", me included.

Sure we've had a theoretically easy run to the semi-final but that's probably our true level in European competition anyway - contenders but not favourites - and if we go out now it will have been a success.

But now we're here it's a good opportunity to go one step further against another team that have overachieved and I'll be delighted if we get past the Dutch.

The media won't though - having hyped up England's individuals rather than looked at the team as a whole, they'll be out for Southgate's blood despite what he's achieved.

If you want to use a cricket analogy, the saying is that 'batters save matches, bowlers that win them!' - or in other words you might not always win games with the 3 best batters in your side but unless they are up against the 3 best bowlers in the world, they probably won't lose many at all!

And the point I'm making here is that Southgate has the mindset of going out not to lose, rather going out to win.

Whether we like it or not his thinking seems to be as we are in a 'tournament' format rather than a 'league' format that it is the end result that matters - a draw after extra-time and penalties is far better than taking chances and pushing men forward through out the game and going goals down and end up losing.

This can be evidenced that his original thinking was to play a quarter back, in Trent, to 'pass through' teams, rather than start the like of Palmer, Eze, or Gordon, to 'run at them; with the ball.

It is further evidenced that when we went a goal down the team could step up to be more attacking and score goals.

It seemed obvious to me that once we pushed for the winner in normal time and failed to kill them off, that Southgate again reverted in the 30 minutes extra time, to a 'not lose' mentality and not the 'go on to win' the game, risk avoidance mantra that has served him so well in his England managerial career.

That's clearly his philosophy and the way he set's his teams up to do.

It is good to see that you've finally understand that...

Sluffy wrote:The secret is not to have the best individual players in your team, the secret is to pick the players that makes the team work the best.

I expect Southgate will stick pretty much to the team that started the Swiss game (maybe Guehi back in place of Konsa) and with the same system and style of play.

I expect another cautious England outing and it would not surprise me in the least if we end winning in the penalty shoot out.

A win is a win - and to Southgate that it is all the matters.

It isn't the beautiful game though that we all would wish to see.

But history remembers the winners and not the glorious losers!

Good analysis of Southgate’s position that Sluffy and I agree with it but it isn’t just England, all the other big teams seem to have adopted the same system and rationale, possibly best indicated by the fact that all the games are low scoring with the leading scorer still only on 3 goals. The mindset seems to be more on keeping possession and not losing rather than the usual going all out to win so I think we’ve just got to accept that as in the PL, the fashion at the moment is a bit more slowly slowly build up than the cavalier stuff we’ve been used to. It might not be as exciting to watch but if Southgate brings home the trophy will anybody really care?

Terrific performance from the boys last night and well done Gareth after all that stick it was good to see you finally get it right. We completely outplayed the Dutch after their goal, a real cracker it was too, and whilst we did drop off in the second half we still looked the stronger team. The substitutions for one made at the right time proved the difference and what a goal it was from Watkins to win it. I think I’m in a minority on the penalty because for me it was a pen all day. If a player comes up with studs showing anywhere on the pitch it’s going to be given and whether he was trying to block Kanes shot or not he came in with foot high and studs showing and a pen it was. Considering some English moans pre game about the German referee I think he shut them up very well and in fact I think the officiating in the whole tournament has been excellent. Anyway on to Spain now and whilst it will be a tough task there’s no reason why if we play last night we can’t do them too and bring the trophy home.

I thought the penalty was a bit dodgy but we'll take. The Dutch decided at HT to play for penalties as they flooded the midfield to stop the likes of Foden and Mainoo (both excellent by the way) playing.

I have been critical of Southgate but to be fair he got it mostly right last night. I would have made the subs a but earlier but other than that i can't complain.

Shaw has to start in the final, much better balance on the left and Trippier has been poor. Its going to be a much tougher game against Spain though.

Norpig wrote:I thought the penalty was a bit dodgy but we'll take. The Dutch decided at HT to play for penalties as they flooded the midfield to stop the likes of Foden and Mainoo (both excellent by the way) playing.

I have been critical of Southgate but to be fair he got it mostly right last night. I would have made the subs a but earlier but other than that i can't complain.

Shaw has to start in the final, much better balance on the left and Trippier has been poor. Its going to be a much tougher game against Spain though.

Certainly agree it was an iffy penalty, but we'll take it.
Still think it's Spain's to lose. The two wingers scare the hell out of me, and on current form we should come off second best.
But, the Whites should have battered Oxford, so who would say we can't bring the trophy home?

Of course it wasn't a 'real' penalty, in the same way it isn't a 'real' offside if your toenail is slightly over the line.

It isn't 'real' football when defenders have to ridiculously and artificially alter their body shape to have both their arms behind their back when defending in the penalty area.

This is however the crazy world of VAR that we now inhabit and these are the bonkers decisions we have to live with.

The defender went to block the ball, that's how you put your foot up to do so, if you didn't you risk injury to your ankle if you haven't braced it for the power it will receive against it when a grown man in effect kicks you at point blank range.

The defender simply went to block the shot and it was Kane that ended up kicking him.

That isn't a penalty no more than the joke penalties that VAR gives when the ball is blasted against someone's arm at point blank range.

Football is being micro-managed and its making a mockery of the game I knew and played.

It's artificially perfect and not real anymore.

If you want VAR to run the game, then use it for all the cheating that goes on too, like people diving for penalties or holding players shirts, or deliberate time wasting.

If they did no game would ever finish because all the players would have been sent off before full the time whistle.

Football is a game with imperfections, not an exact science.

I thought it wasn't a penalty but as someone put it "Maradona's was handball, Beckham's was never a sending off and Campbell's goal should have counted in '04 so we'll take it."

I thought sacrificing Bellingham to shore up the left side was a brilliant move as it gave Foden space to operate - at least until Koeman closed down the middle in the second half. Showed me Sir Gareth is tactically astute and we looked good for a while. Only slight criticism was that Kane was getting no joy holding the ball up and wasn't making enough runs into the box or splitting the defenders and what was needed was Watkins stock in trade movement when playing against big mobile defenders so I'd have made the switch a lot earlier. Otherwise, top job.

No doubt Kane will start against Spain but I'm wondering how Southgate will set up against them? I can see Walker and Saka being entrusted to handle Nico Williams on our right but not sure who will be playing on our left to challenge Yamal and I suspect Dani Carvajal back to replace Navas. Could go with Trippier and sacrifice Bellingham again but I'd have thought our best bet would be Shaw and Gordon with Bellingham supporting. Can't see Southgate doing it though. Mainoo had Rodri well under control in the cup final so hoping for a repeat of that.

Anything could happen, but I'm hoping Southgate has the plan to give it a real good go.

Shaw and Saka need to be pushing back Williams and Yamal, need to get a grip in midfield as well as otherwise we won't see a lot of the ball. I'll take a scruffy 1-0 win all day