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Wanderers in £2.5m funding hole but "players will be paid" insists co-owner Ken Anderson

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Bwfc1958
scottjames30
Fabians Right Peg
blasterbolton
JAH
terenceanne
wanderlust
boltonbonce
whatsgoingon
luckyPeterpiper
Natasha Whittam
Sluffy
MartinBWFC
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luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

bwfc1874 wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
bwfc1874 wrote:'Wasn't you one of those?' Has Scott taken over your account?

I don't see the correlation in your reply to be honest, why can't Anderson blag in an interview? I'm not saying he definitely is, although the signs aren't great, just saying that (yet again) you decide things are fact with next to no evidence. How many people are agreeing with your POV? No need to get annoyed, just an observation.

Why would he lie - he didn't even have to comment in the first place - just like Holdsworth didn't!

He would soon be found out if that was the case anyway if the wages aren't paid in just a few days time.  If that was the case no one would trust his word ever again.

No mate, you are twisting this all you can just so you can carry on arguing for arguments sake.


So you don't think there's any chance at all Ken would blag in this situation to keep the heat off him? Not saying he is, but it's clearly not the totally unbelievable chain of events you're trying to make it out to be.

You do the same thing everytime anybody dares question you, false incredulity and claim they're being deliberately argumentative. You should recognise that you're in the minority with your views on the ST and other opinions are valid.
Sluffy might well be in the minority on the ST but he's not alone and here's why I think he's got a point about this particular incident.

Yesterday morning LoV, in fact Chris Manning personally posted an article stating that the players might not be paid, Anderson had failed to provide funding etc. It's on here on my article titled "Ructions in the Boardroom?". At the time I felt there might well be a kernel of truth to it, I didn't think Manning would be so stupid as to deliberately lie. I thought he might be, in fact probably was mistaken about the funds and may have been fed a false 'lead' by a disgruntled soon to be former employee.

That was until I read this article and it's extremely illuminating last sentence. The Supporters Trust has written an official letter? Really? And of course the fact there aren't any elected officers for the ST yet, the fact it does not legally exist yet means you have to wonder just who signed this "Official Letter"?

I've come to the conclusion that this is deliberate scare mongering and muck raking by the "ST" (aka Christopher Manning) who posted his nebulous website article with "more on this story as it becomes available" and then eight hours later the BN is in Ken's office to ask about the "funding gap".

I don't think that's a coincidence at all, it's Manning and his steering group cronies deliberately attempting to undermine the new owners. Why? Two possibilities strike me. First it's an ego trip because he's still miffed that the "ST" didn't get preferred bidder status despite not existing and not even having a bank account at the time they sought it. Second, that they believe they can get the club themselves for a song, possibly with covert backing from Eddie Davies who has links to at least two of the Steering Group members.

I don't doubt there are differences of opinion between Ken and Dean, they have different viewpoints about football after all and how to take the club forward. I don't doubt Ken is less than snow white squeaky clean but show me a millionaire who's as pure as the driven snow and I'll show you someone who inherited his pennies not made them. In essence Ken is a numbers man, profits matter more than anything else, Dean is a football man who wants to see us climbing leagues and winning trophies yesterday or (if he's feeling patient) next week at the latest. Both men have BWFC's best interests in mind albeit for different reasons and while they don't have much if any cash left over I would trust them a lot more than a half baked internet egotist who spouts bullshit (yes I swore, I feel that strongly about it) for his own selfish ends.

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington


I think Anderson's telling it like it is here. The money's there and the players will be paid on time. The "ST" and BN appear to be colluding to either drive a wedge between Ken and Dean or drive them out altogether with stories that are half truths and outright lies.
I think there is an agenda with the ST and after the business with the takeover I decided against joining because it appears to be in it for itself, however whether Manning is lobbying for the ST or not he runs a BWFC news website and you can't argue that there was foundation to the article. Clearly the money isn't yet in the clubs accounts and whether Anderson has it ready to pay in or not it appears the wages being paid was an issue. The other part of the piece was the breakdown of the relationship between KA & DH and you don't need to be Columbo to read between the lines and see that there is real foundation to that claim so in my opinion the article wasn't inflammatory  scurrilous as being suggested.
Regarding Iles and the BN, give the guy a break. If he didn't investigate this claim and report on it then everyone would be panning him saying he's a club puppet and doesn't investigate the awkward subjects, when he does he's colluding with the ST so talk about lose-lose.
I don't think what the LOV are reporting is lies, and I hope that what Anderson is replying with isn't either so hopefully it's just 2 sides to the same story. The bit which really worries me is the fact that in both sides it is clear that the relationship between DH & KA is boken, whether that is irrevocable remains to be seen.

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

whatsgoingon wrote:

I think Anderson's telling it like it is here. The money's there and the players will be paid on time. The "ST" and BN appear to be colluding to either drive a wedge between Ken and Dean or drive them out altogether with stories that are half truths and outright lies.
I think there is an agenda with the ST and after the business with the takeover I decided against joining because it appears to be in it for itself, however whether Manning is lobbying for the ST or not he runs a BWFC news website and you can't argue that there was foundation to the article. Clearly the money isn't yet in the clubs accounts and whether Anderson has it ready to pay in or not it appears the wages being paid was an issue. The other part of the piece was the breakdown of the relationship between KA & DH and you don't need to be Columbo to read between the lines and see that there is real foundation to that claim so in my opinion the article wasn't inflammatory  scurrilous as being suggested.
Regarding Iles and the BN, give the guy a break. If he didn't investigate this claim and report on it then everyone would be panning him saying he's a club puppet and doesn't investigate the awkward subjects, when he does he's colluding with the ST so talk about lose-lose.
I don't think what the LOV are reporting is lies, and I hope that what Anderson is replying with isn't either so hopefully it's just 2 sides to the same story. The bit which really worries me is the fact that in both sides it is clear that the relationship between DH & KA is boken, whether that is irrevocable remains to be seen.
Please don't mistake me. Of course Iles had to go and ask about it. What I'm miffed at is why he had to go and ask. Manning clearly published his half arsed pile of steaming horse shit yesterday morning with the express purpose of getting Iles out there and then he 'tipped' Iles about the "Official Letter" thus making it sound like the funding gap was the real story and the St was tacked on as an afterthought. The entire business was imo engineered by Manning and his cronies solely to get that last sentence in. The Supporters Trust has wriitten an official letter etc etc. Boy don't they sound big and important now the BN is publicly stating what they're up to.

Of course it might be nice if the Supporter's Trust actually existed and had things like, oh let's say elected officers and an elected committee who could then vote on whether or not to send "Official Letters" signed by an actual officer but you can't have everything now can you? (If that sounds like a sarcasm overload it's because it is one).

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

There is obviously a polarity issue with the ST some absolutely love it and some absolutely hate it, as I said I am moving away from it because there seems to be an agenda and I don't see them as trustworthy. But I disagree on the fact that this article was bullshit, I think it expressed reasonable concerns and appears to have foundation in much of what was said, and the fact that Anderson has responded quite robustly proves that IMO, had it just been scurrilous scaremongering I don't think he would have even responded.
That said the ST are increasingly looking like a bunch of self serving egotistical pricks looking to enhance their own pathological sense of self importance.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Would you all please send future posts on this subject straight to my Kindle,and I'll try and make time to read them.



Last edited by boltonbonce on Tue May 24 2016, 12:02; edited 1 time in total

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Guest

At eight o'clock Kutuzov rode to Pratz at the head of Miloradovich's fourth column, the one which was to take the place of the columns of Przebyszewski and Langeron, which had already gone down. He greeted the men of the head regiment and gave the order to move, thus showing that he intended to lead the column himself. Having ridden to the village of Pratz, he halted. Prince Andrei, one of the enormous number of persons constituting the commander in chief's suite, stood behind him. Prince Andrei felt excited, irritated, and at the same time restrainedly calm, as a man usually is when a long-desired moment comes. He was firmly convinced that this was the day of his Toulon or his bridge of Arcole.[1] How it would happen, he did not know, but he was firmly convinced that it would be so. The locality and position of our troops were known to him, as far as they could be known to anyone in our army. His own strategic plan, which there obviously could be no thought of carrying out now, was forgotten. Now, entering into Weyrother's plan, Prince Andrei pondered the possible happenstances and came up with new considerations, such as might call for his swiftness of reflection and decisiveness.
To the left below, in the fog, exchanges of fire between unseen troops could be heard. There, it seemed to Prince Andrei, the battle would concentrate, there an obstacle would be encountered, and "it's there that I'll be sent with a brigade or division, and there, with a standard in my hand, I'll go forward and crush everything ahead of me."
Prince Andrei could not look with indifference at the standards of the battalions going past him. Looking at a standard, he thought: maybe it is that very standard with which I'll have to march at the head of the troops.
By morning the night's fog had left only hoarfrost turning into dew on the heights, but in the hollows the fog still spread its milk-white sea. Nothing could be seen in that hollow to the left, into which our troops had descended and from which came the sounds of gunfire. Over the heights was a dark, clear sky, and to the right-the enormous ball of the sun. Far ahead, on the other shore of the sea of fog, one could make out the jutting, wooded hills on which the enemy army was supposed to be, and something was discernible. To the right the guards were entering the region of the fog, with a sound of tramping and wheels and an occasional gleam of bayonets; to the left, beyond the village, similar masses of cavalry approached and disappeared into the sea of fog. In front and behind moved the infantry. The commander in chief stood on the road out of the village, letting the troops pass by him. Kutuzov seemed exhausted and irritable that morning. The infantry going past him halted without any command, apparently because something ahead held them up.
"But tell them, finally, to form into battalions and go around the village," Kutuzov said angrily to a general who rode up. "Don't you understand, Your Excellency, my dear sir, that to stretch out in a defile through village streets is impossible when we're marching against an enemy?"
"I intended to form them up outside the village, Your Excellency," said the general.
Kutuzov laughed biliously.
"A fine sight you'd be, lining up in view of the enemy, a very fine sight!"
"The enemy's still far off, Your Excellency. According to the disposition . . ."
"The disposition!" Kutuzov exclaimed biliously. "Who told you that? . . . Kindly do as you're ordered."
"Yes, sir!"
"Mon cher," Nesvitsky said to Prince Andrei in a whisper, "le vieux est d'une humeur de chien."[2]
An Austrian officer in a white uniform with green plumes on his hat rode up to Kutuzov and asked on behalf of the emperor whether the fourth column had started into action.
Kutuzov turned away without answering him, and his gaze chanced to rest on Prince Andrei, who was standing close by. Seeing Bolkonsky, Kutuzov softened the angry and caustic expression of his gaze, as if aware that his adjutant was not to blame for what was going on. And, without answering the Austrian adjutant, he addressed Bolkonsky:
"Allez voir, mon cher, si la troisième division a dépassé le village. Dites-lui de s'arrêter et d'attendre mes ordres."[3]
Prince Andrei had only just started when he stopped him.
"Et demandez-lui si les tirailleurs sont postés," he added. "Ce qu'ils font, ce qu'ils font!"[4] he said to himself, still not answering the Austrian.
Prince Andrei galloped off to carry out his mission.
Overtaking all the advancing battalions, he stopped the third division and ascertained that there was in fact no line of riflemen in front of our columns. The regimental commander of the front regiment was very surprised by the order conveyed to him from the commander in chief to send out riflemen. The regimental commander stood there in the full conviction that there were more troops ahead of him, and that the enemy was no less than six miles away. In fact, nothing could be seen ahead but empty terrain sloping away and covered with thick fog. Having ordered on behalf of the commander in chief that the omission be rectified, Prince Andrei galloped back. Kutuzov still stood in the same place and, his corpulent body sagging over the saddle in old man's fashion, yawned deeply, closing his eyes. The troops were no longer moving, but stood at parade rest.
"Very good, very good," he said to Prince Andrei and turned to a general who stood there with a watch in his hand, saying it was time to move on, because all the columns of the left flank had already descended.
"We still have time, Your Excellency," Kutuzov said through a yawn. "We have time!" he repeated.
Just then, from well behind Kutuzov, came shouts of regimental greetings, and these voices began to approach quickly along the whole extended line of the advancing Russian columns. It was clear that the one being greeted was riding quickly. When the soldiers of the regiment Kutuzov was standing in front of began to shout, he rode slightly to one side and, wincing, turned to look. Down the road from Pratz galloped what looked like a squadron of varicolored horsemen. Two of them rode side by side at a great gallop ahead of the rest. One, in a black uniform with white plumes, rode a bobtailed chestnut horse, the other, in a white uniform, rode a black horse. These were the two emperors with their suite. Kutuzov, with the affectation of a frontline veteran, ordered his standing troops to "attention" and, saluting, rode up to the emperor. His whole figure and manner suddenly changed. He acquired the look of a subordinate, unthinking man. With affected deference, which obviously struck the emperor Alexander unpleasantly, he rode up and saluted him.
The unpleasant impression, like the remains of fog in a clear sky, passed over the emperor's young and happy face and disappeared. He was somewhat thinner that day, after his illness, than on the field of Olmütz, where Bolkonsky had seen him for the first time abroad, but there was the same enchanting combination of majesty and mildness in his beautiful gray eyes, and the fine lips had the same possibility of various expressions, with a prevalent expression of good-natured, innocent youth.
At the Olmütz review he was more majestic; here he was more cheerful and energetic. He was slightly flushed after galloping two miles and, reining in his horse, gave a sigh of relief and looked around at the faces of his suite, as young, as animated as his own. Czartoryski and Novosiltsev, and Prince Volkonsky and Stroganov, and the others, all richly clad, cheerful young men on splendid, pampered, fresh, only slightly sweaty horses, talking and smiling, stopped behind the sovereign. The emperor Franz, a ruddy, long-faced young man, sat extremely straight on his handsome black stallion and looked around him with a preoccupied, unhurried air. He called up one of his white adjutants and asked something. "Most likely what time they started," thought Prince Andrei, observing his old aquaintance, and recalling his audience with a smile he was unable to repress. In the emperors' suite there were picked fine young orderly officers, Russian and Austrian, from the guards and infantry regiments. Among them were grooms leading the handsome spare horses of the royalty in embroidered cloths.
As fresh air from the fields suddenly breathes through an open window into a stuffy room, so youth, energy, and certainty of success breathed upon Kutuzov's cheerless staff as these brilliant young men galloped up.
"Why don't you begin, Mikhail Larionovich?" the emperor Alexander hurriedly addressed Kutuzov, at the same time glancing courteously at the emperor Franz.
"I am waiting, Your Majesty," answered Kutuzov, inclining deferentially.
The emperor cupped his ear, frowning slightly and showing that he had not heard properly.
"I'm waiting, Your Majesty," Kutuzov repeated (Prince Andrei noticed that Kutuzov's upper lip twitched unnaturally as he said this "waiting"). "Not all the columns are assembled, Your Majesty."
The sovereign heard, but this reply clearly did not please him; he shrugged his slightly stooping shoulders, glanced at Novosiltsev, who stood nearby, as if complaining of Kutuzov by this glance.
"We're not on the Tsaritsyn Field,[5] Mikhail Larionovich, where you don't start a parade until all the regiments are assembled," said the sovereign, again glancing into the eyes of the emperor Franz, as though inviting him, if not to take part, at least to listen to what he was saying; but the emperor Franz went on looking around and did not listen.
"That is just why I do not begin, Sire," Kutuzov said in a ringing voice, as if to forestall the possibility of not being heard, and again something twitched in his face. "I do not begin, Sire, because we are not on parade and not on the Tsaritsyn Field," he uttered clearly and distinctly.
All the faces in the sovereign's suite instantly exchanged glances with each other, expressing murmur and reproach. "Old as he may be, he should not, he simply should not speak that way," these faces expressed.
The sovereign looked fixedly and attentively into Kutuzov's eyes, waiting to see if he would say something more. But Kutuzov, for his part, bowed his head deferentially and also seemed to be waiting. The silence lasted for about a minute.
"However, if you order it, Your Majesty," said Kutuzov, raising his head and again changing his tone to that of a dull, unthinking, but obedient general.
He touched up his horse and, calling to him the column leader Miloradovich, gave him the order to advance.
The troops stirred again, and two battalions of the Novgorodsky regiment and a battalion of the Apsheronsky regiment moved on past the sovereign.
While this Apsheronsky battalion was marching by, ruddy-faced Miloradovich, with no greatcoat, in his uniform tunic and decorations and a hat with enormous plumes, worn at an angle and brim first, galloped ahead hup-two, and with a dashing salute, reined in his horse before the sovereign.
"God be with you, General," said the sovereign.
"Ma foi, sire, nous ferons ce que qui sera dans notre possibilité, sire!"[6] he replied merrily, nevertheless calling up mocking smiles among the gentlemen of the suite with his bad French.
Miloradovich turned his horse sharply and placed himself slightly behind the sovereign. The Apsherontsy, excited by the presence of the sovereign, marched past the emperors and their suite at a dashingly brisk pace, beating their feet.
"Lads!" cried Miloradovich in a loud, self-assured, and merry voice, obviously so excited by the sounds of gunfire, the anticipation of battle, and the sight of his gallant Apsherontsy-his companions from Suvorov's time-marching briskly past the emperors, that he forgot the sovereign's presence. "Lads, it won't be the first village you've taken!" he shouted.
"We do our best, sir!" the soldiers shouted out.
The sovereign's horse shied at the sudden shout. This horse, who had carried the sovereign at reviews while still in Russia, also carried her rider here, on the field of Austerlitz, enduring the distracted nudges of his left foot, pricked up her ears at the sound of gunshots just as she did on the Field of Mars, understanding neither the meaning of the shots she heard, nor the presence of the emperor Franz's black stallion, nor anything of what her rider said, thought, or felt that day.
The sovereign turned with a smile to one of his retinue, pointing to the gallant Apsherontsy, and said something to him.
XVI
Kutuzov, accompanied by his adjutants, rode at a walk behind the carabineers.
Having gone less than half a mile at the tail of the column, he stopped by a solitary, deserted house (probably a former tavern), where the road forked. Both roads went down the hill, and troops were marching along both.
The fog began to lift, and enemy troops could be dimly seen about a mile and a half away on the heights opposite. To the left below, the gunfire was growing louder. Kutuzov stopped, talking with an Austrian general. Prince Andrei, standing slightly behind him, peered at the enemy and turned to an adjutant, wishing to borrow a field glass from him.
"Look, look," said this adjutant, looking not at the distant troops, but down the hill in front of him. "It's the French!"
The two generals and the adjutants began snatching at the field glass, pulling it away from each other. All their faces suddenly changed, and on all of them horror appeared. The French were supposed to be a mile and a half from us, and they suddenly turned up right in front of us.
"Is it the enemy? . . . No! . . . Yes, look, he's . . . for certain . . . What is this?" voices said.
With his naked eye, Prince Andrei saw below, to the right, a dense column of French coming up to meet the Apsherontsy, no further than five hundred paces from where Kutuzov was standing.
"Here it is, the decisive moment has come! Now it's my turn," thought Prince Andrei, and, spurring his horse, he rode up to Kutuzov.
"The Apsherontsy must be stopped, Your Excellency!" he cried.
But at that same moment everything became covered with smoke, there was the sound of gunfire nearby, and a naively frightened voice two steps from Prince Andrei cried: "Well, brothers, that's it for us!" And it was as if this voice was a command. At this voice everyone began to run.
Confused, ever increasing crowds came running back to the place where, five minutes before, the troops had marched past the emperors. Not only was it difficult to stop this crowd, but it was impossible not to yield and move back with it. Bolkonsky tried only not to be separated from Kutuzov and looked around in perplexity, unable to understand what was happening in front of him. Nesvitsky, looking angry, red, and not like himself, shouted to Kutuzov that if he did not leave at once, he would certainly be taken prisoner. Kutuzov stood in the same place and, without responding, took out his handkerchief. Blood was flowing from his cheek. Prince Andrei forced his way to him.
"Are you wounded?" he asked, barely able to control the trembling of his lower jaw.
"The wound isn't here, it's there!" said Kutuzov, pressing the handkerchief to his wounded cheek and pointing to the fleeing men.
"Stop them!" he cried, and at the same time, probably realizing that it was impossible to stop them, spurred his horse and rode to the right.
A fresh crowd of fleeing men streamed past, caught him up, and carried him backwards.
The troops were fleeing in such a dense crowd that, once one landed in the middle of it, it was difficult to get out. Someone shouted, "Keep going, don't drag your feet!" Another, turning around, fired into the air; someone else struck the horse on which Kutuzov himself was riding. Extricating themselves with the greatest effort from the flow of the crowd to the left, Kutuzov and his suite, diminished by more than half, rode towards the sounds of nearby cannon fire. Extricating himself from the crowd of fleeing men, Prince Andrei, trying to keep up with Kutuzov, saw on the slope of the hill, amidst the smoke, a Russian battery still firing, and the French running up to it. Slightly higher stood Russian infantry, neither moving ahead to aid the battery, nor backwards in the direction of the fugitives. A general on horseback separated himself from the infantry and rode up to Kutuzov. There were only four men left in Kutuzov's suite. They were all pale and exchanged glances silently.
"Stop those villains!" Kutuzov said breathlessly to the regimental commander, pointing to the fleeing men; but at the same moment, as if in punishment for those words, bullets, like a flock of birds, flew whistling at the regiment and Kutuzov's suite.
The French had attacked the battery and, seeing Kutuzov, were shooting at him. With this volley, the regimental commander seized his leg; several soldiers fell, and an ensign holding a standard let it drop from his hands; the standard wavered and fell, stopped momentarily by the bayonets of the soldiers around it. The soldiers began firing without any orders.
"Oooh!" Kutuzov moaned with an expression of despair and looked around. "Bolkonsky," he whispered in a voice trembling with awareness of his old man's strengthlessness. "Bolkonsky," he whispered, pointing to the disordered battalion and the enemy, "what's going on?"
But before he finished saying it, Prince Andrei, feeling sobs of shame and anger rising in his throat, was already jumping off his horse and running towards the standard.
"Forward, lads!" he cried in a childishly shrill voice.
"Here it is!" thought Prince Andrei, seizing the staff of the standard and hearing with delight the whistle of bullets, evidently aimed precisely at him. Several soldiers fell.
"Hurrah!" cried Prince Andrei, barely able to hold up the heavy standard, and he ran forward with unquestioning assurance that the entire battalion would run after him.
And indeed he ran only a few steps alone. One soldier started out, another, and the whole battalion, with a shout of "Hurrah!" rushed forward and overtook him. A sergeant of the battalion ran up, took the standard that was wavering in Prince Andrei's hands because of its weight, but was killed at once. Prince Andrei again seized the standard and, dragging it by the staff, ran with the battalion. Ahead of him he saw our artillerists, some of whom were fighting, while others abandoned the cannon and came running in his direction; he also saw French infantrymen, who had seized the artillery horses and were turning the cannon. Prince Andrei and his battalion were now twenty paces from the cannon. Above him he heard the unceasing whistle of bullets, and soldiers ceaselessly gasped and fell to right and left of him. But he did not look at them; he looked fixedly only at what was happening ahead of him-at the battery. He clearly saw the figure of a red-haired gunner, his shako knocked askew, pulling a swab from one side, while a French soldier pulled it towards him from the other side. Prince Andrei saw clearly the bewildered and at the same time angry expression on the faces of the two men, who evidently did not understand what they were doing.
"What are they doing?" Prince Andrei wondered, looking at them. "Why doesn't the red-haired artillerist run away, since he has no weapon? Why doesn't the Frenchman stab him? Before he runs away, the Frenchman will remember his musket and bayonet him."
In fact, another Frenchman with his musket atilt ran up to the fighting men, and the lot of the red-haired artillerist, who still did not understand what awaited him and triumphantly pulled the swab from the French soldier's hands, was about to be decided. But Prince Andrei did not see how it ended. It seemed to him as though one of the nearest soldiers, with the full swing of a stout stick, hit him on the head. It was slightly painful and above all unpleasant, because the pain distracted him and kept him from seeing what he had been looking at.
"What is it? am I falling? are my legs giving way under me?" he thought, and fell on his back. He opened his eyes, hoping to see how the fight between the French and the artillerists ended, and wishing to know whether or not the red-haired artillerist had been killed, whether the cannon had been taken or saved. But he did not see anything. There was nothing over him now except the sky-the lofty sky, not clear, but still immeasurably lofty, with gray clouds slowly creeping across it. "How quiet, calm, and solemn, not at all like when I was running," thought Prince Andrei, "not like when we were running, shouting, and fighting; not at all like when the Frenchman and the artillerist, with angry and frightened faces, were pulling at the swab-it's quite different the way the clouds creep across this lofty, infinite sky. How is it I haven't seen this lofty sky before? And how happy I am that I've finally come to know it. Yes! everything is empty, everything is a deception, except this infinite sky. There is nothing, nothing except that. But there is not even that, there is nothing except silence, tranquillity. And thank God! . . ."

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

y2johnny wrote:At eight o'clock Kutuzov rode to Pratz at the head of Miloradovich's fourth column, the one which was to take the place of the columns of Przebyszewski and Langeron, which had already gone down. He greeted the men of the head regiment and gave the order to move, thus showing that he intended to lead the column himself. Having ridden to the village of Pratz, he halted. Prince Andrei, one of the enormous number of persons constituting the commander in chief's suite, stood behind him. Prince Andrei felt excited, irritated, and at the same time restrainedly calm, as a man usually is when a long-desired moment comes. He was firmly convinced that this was the day of his Toulon or his bridge of Arcole.[1] How it would happen, he did not know, but he was firmly convinced that it would be so. The locality and position of our troops were known to him, as far as they could be known to anyone in our army. His own strategic plan, which there obviously could be no thought of carrying out now, was forgotten. Now, entering into Weyrother's plan, Prince Andrei pondered the possible happenstances and came up with new considerations, such as might call for his swiftness of reflection and decisiveness.
To the left below, in the fog, exchanges of fire between unseen troops could be heard. There, it seemed to Prince Andrei, the battle would concentrate, there an obstacle would be encountered, and "it's there that I'll be sent with a brigade or division, and there, with a standard in my hand, I'll go forward and crush everything ahead of me."
Prince Andrei could not look with indifference at the standards of the battalions going past him. Looking at a standard, he thought: maybe it is that very standard with which I'll have to march at the head of the troops.
By morning the night's fog had left only hoarfrost turning into dew on the heights, but in the hollows the fog still spread its milk-white sea. Nothing could be seen in that hollow to the left, into which our troops had descended and from which came the sounds of gunfire. Over the heights was a dark, clear sky, and to the right-the enormous ball of the sun. Far ahead, on the other shore of the sea of fog, one could make out the jutting, wooded hills on which the enemy army was supposed to be, and something was discernible. To the right the guards were entering the region of the fog, with a sound of tramping and wheels and an occasional gleam of bayonets; to the left, beyond the village, similar masses of cavalry approached and disappeared into the sea of fog. In front and behind moved the infantry. The commander in chief stood on the road out of the village, letting the troops pass by him. Kutuzov seemed exhausted and irritable that morning. The infantry going past him halted without any command, apparently because something ahead held them up.
"But tell them, finally, to form into battalions and go around the village," Kutuzov said angrily to a general who rode up. "Don't you understand, Your Excellency, my dear sir, that to stretch out in a defile through village streets is impossible when we're marching against an enemy?"
"I intended to form them up outside the village, Your Excellency," said the general.
Kutuzov laughed biliously.
"A fine sight you'd be, lining up in view of the enemy, a very fine sight!"
"The enemy's still far off, Your Excellency. According to the disposition . . ."
"The disposition!" Kutuzov exclaimed biliously. "Who told you that? . . . Kindly do as you're ordered."
"Yes, sir!"
"Mon cher," Nesvitsky said to Prince Andrei in a whisper, "le vieux est d'une humeur de chien."[2]
An Austrian officer in a white uniform with green plumes on his hat rode up to Kutuzov and asked on behalf of the emperor whether the fourth column had started into action.
Kutuzov turned away without answering him, and his gaze chanced to rest on Prince Andrei, who was standing close by. Seeing Bolkonsky, Kutuzov softened the angry and caustic expression of his gaze, as if aware that his adjutant was not to blame for what was going on. And, without answering the Austrian adjutant, he addressed Bolkonsky:
"Allez voir, mon cher, si la troisième division a dépassé le village. Dites-lui de s'arrêter et d'attendre mes ordres."[3]
Prince Andrei had only just started when he stopped him.
"Et demandez-lui si les tirailleurs sont postés," he added. "Ce qu'ils font, ce qu'ils font!"[4] he said to himself, still not answering the Austrian.
Prince Andrei galloped off to carry out his mission.
Overtaking all the advancing battalions, he stopped the third division and ascertained that there was in fact no line of riflemen in front of our columns. The regimental commander of the front regiment was very surprised by the order conveyed to him from the commander in chief to send out riflemen. The regimental commander stood there in the full conviction that there were more troops ahead of him, and that the enemy was no less than six miles away. In fact, nothing could be seen ahead but empty terrain sloping away and covered with thick fog. Having ordered on behalf of the commander in chief that the omission be rectified, Prince Andrei galloped back. Kutuzov still stood in the same place and, his corpulent body sagging over the saddle in old man's fashion, yawned deeply, closing his eyes. The troops were no longer moving, but stood at parade rest.
"Very good, very good," he said to Prince Andrei and turned to a general who stood there with a watch in his hand, saying it was time to move on, because all the columns of the left flank had already descended.
"We still have time, Your Excellency," Kutuzov said through a yawn. "We have time!" he repeated.
Just then, from well behind Kutuzov, came shouts of regimental greetings, and these voices began to approach quickly along the whole extended line of the advancing Russian columns. It was clear that the one being greeted was riding quickly. When the soldiers of the regiment Kutuzov was standing in front of began to shout, he rode slightly to one side and, wincing, turned to look. Down the road from Pratz galloped what looked like a squadron of varicolored horsemen. Two of them rode side by side at a great gallop ahead of the rest. One, in a black uniform with white plumes, rode a bobtailed chestnut horse, the other, in a white uniform, rode a black horse. These were the two emperors with their suite. Kutuzov, with the affectation of a frontline veteran, ordered his standing troops to "attention" and, saluting, rode up to the emperor. His whole figure and manner suddenly changed. He acquired the look of a subordinate, unthinking man. With affected deference, which obviously struck the emperor Alexander unpleasantly, he rode up and saluted him.
The unpleasant impression, like the remains of fog in a clear sky, passed over the emperor's young and happy face and disappeared. He was somewhat thinner that day, after his illness, than on the field of Olmütz, where Bolkonsky had seen him for the first time abroad, but there was the same enchanting combination of majesty and mildness in his beautiful gray eyes, and the fine lips had the same possibility of various expressions, with a prevalent expression of good-natured, innocent youth.
At the Olmütz review he was more majestic; here he was more cheerful and energetic. He was slightly flushed after galloping two miles and, reining in his horse, gave a sigh of relief and looked around at the faces of his suite, as young, as animated as his own. Czartoryski and Novosiltsev, and Prince Volkonsky and Stroganov, and the others, all richly clad, cheerful young men on splendid, pampered, fresh, only slightly sweaty horses, talking and smiling, stopped behind the sovereign. The emperor Franz, a ruddy, long-faced young man, sat extremely straight on his handsome black stallion and looked around him with a preoccupied, unhurried air. He called up one of his white adjutants and asked something. "Most likely what time they started," thought Prince Andrei, observing his old aquaintance, and recalling his audience with a smile he was unable to repress. In the emperors' suite there were picked fine young orderly officers, Russian and Austrian, from the guards and infantry regiments. Among them were grooms leading the handsome spare horses of the royalty in embroidered cloths.
As fresh air from the fields suddenly breathes through an open window into a stuffy room, so youth, energy, and certainty of success breathed upon Kutuzov's cheerless staff as these brilliant young men galloped up.
"Why don't you begin, Mikhail Larionovich?" the emperor Alexander hurriedly addressed Kutuzov, at the same time glancing courteously at the emperor Franz.
"I am waiting, Your Majesty," answered Kutuzov, inclining deferentially.
The emperor cupped his ear, frowning slightly and showing that he had not heard properly.
"I'm waiting, Your Majesty," Kutuzov repeated (Prince Andrei noticed that Kutuzov's upper lip twitched unnaturally as he said this "waiting"). "Not all the columns are assembled, Your Majesty."
The sovereign heard, but this reply clearly did not please him; he shrugged his slightly stooping shoulders, glanced at Novosiltsev, who stood nearby, as if complaining of Kutuzov by this glance.
"We're not on the Tsaritsyn Field,[5] Mikhail Larionovich, where you don't start a parade until all the regiments are assembled," said the sovereign, again glancing into the eyes of the emperor Franz, as though inviting him, if not to take part, at least to listen to what he was saying; but the emperor Franz went on looking around and did not listen.
"That is just why I do not begin, Sire," Kutuzov said in a ringing voice, as if to forestall the possibility of not being heard, and again something twitched in his face. "I do not begin, Sire, because we are not on parade and not on the Tsaritsyn Field," he uttered clearly and distinctly.
All the faces in the sovereign's suite instantly exchanged glances with each other, expressing murmur and reproach. "Old as he may be, he should not, he simply should not speak that way," these faces expressed.
The sovereign looked fixedly and attentively into Kutuzov's eyes, waiting to see if he would say something more. But Kutuzov, for his part, bowed his head deferentially and also seemed to be waiting. The silence lasted for about a minute.
"However, if you order it, Your Majesty," said Kutuzov, raising his head and again changing his tone to that of a dull, unthinking, but obedient general.
He touched up his horse and, calling to him the column leader Miloradovich, gave him the order to advance.
The troops stirred again, and two battalions of the Novgorodsky regiment and a battalion of the Apsheronsky regiment moved on past the sovereign.
While this Apsheronsky battalion was marching by, ruddy-faced Miloradovich, with no greatcoat, in his uniform tunic and decorations and a hat with enormous plumes, worn at an angle and brim first, galloped ahead hup-two, and with a dashing salute, reined in his horse before the sovereign.
"God be with you, General," said the sovereign.
"Ma foi, sire, nous ferons ce que qui sera dans notre possibilité, sire!"[6] he replied merrily, nevertheless calling up mocking smiles among the gentlemen of the suite with his bad French.
Miloradovich turned his horse sharply and placed himself slightly behind the sovereign. The Apsherontsy, excited by the presence of the sovereign, marched past the emperors and their suite at a dashingly brisk pace, beating their feet.
"Lads!" cried Miloradovich in a loud, self-assured, and merry voice, obviously so excited by the sounds of gunfire, the anticipation of battle, and the sight of his gallant Apsherontsy-his companions from Suvorov's time-marching briskly past the emperors, that he forgot the sovereign's presence. "Lads, it won't be the first village you've taken!" he shouted.
"We do our best, sir!" the soldiers shouted out.
The sovereign's horse shied at the sudden shout. This horse, who had carried the sovereign at reviews while still in Russia, also carried her rider here, on the field of Austerlitz, enduring the distracted nudges of his left foot, pricked up her ears at the sound of gunshots just as she did on the Field of Mars, understanding neither the meaning of the shots she heard, nor the presence of the emperor Franz's black stallion, nor anything of what her rider said, thought, or felt that day.
The sovereign turned with a smile to one of his retinue, pointing to the gallant Apsherontsy, and said something to him.
XVI
Kutuzov, accompanied by his adjutants, rode at a walk behind the carabineers.
Having gone less than half a mile at the tail of the column, he stopped by a solitary, deserted house (probably a former tavern), where the road forked. Both roads went down the hill, and troops were marching along both.
The fog began to lift, and enemy troops could be dimly seen about a mile and a half away on the heights opposite. To the left below, the gunfire was growing louder. Kutuzov stopped, talking with an Austrian general. Prince Andrei, standing slightly behind him, peered at the enemy and turned to an adjutant, wishing to borrow a field glass from him.
"Look, look," said this adjutant, looking not at the distant troops, but down the hill in front of him. "It's the French!"
The two generals and the adjutants began snatching at the field glass, pulling it away from each other. All their faces suddenly changed, and on all of them horror appeared. The French were supposed to be a mile and a half from us, and they suddenly turned up right in front of us.
"Is it the enemy? . . . No! . . . Yes, look, he's . . . for certain . . . What is this?" voices said.
With his naked eye, Prince Andrei saw below, to the right, a dense column of French coming up to meet the Apsherontsy, no further than five hundred paces from where Kutuzov was standing.
"Here it is, the decisive moment has come! Now it's my turn," thought Prince Andrei, and, spurring his horse, he rode up to Kutuzov.
"The Apsherontsy must be stopped, Your Excellency!" he cried.
But at that same moment everything became covered with smoke, there was the sound of gunfire nearby, and a naively frightened voice two steps from Prince Andrei cried: "Well, brothers, that's it for us!" And it was as if this voice was a command. At this voice everyone began to run.
Confused, ever increasing crowds came running back to the place where, five minutes before, the troops had marched past the emperors. Not only was it difficult to stop this crowd, but it was impossible not to yield and move back with it. Bolkonsky tried only not to be separated from Kutuzov and looked around in perplexity, unable to understand what was happening in front of him. Nesvitsky, looking angry, red, and not like himself, shouted to Kutuzov that if he did not leave at once, he would certainly be taken prisoner. Kutuzov stood in the same place and, without responding, took out his handkerchief. Blood was flowing from his cheek. Prince Andrei forced his way to him.
"Are you wounded?" he asked, barely able to control the trembling of his lower jaw.
"The wound isn't here, it's there!" said Kutuzov, pressing the handkerchief to his wounded cheek and pointing to the fleeing men.
"Stop them!" he cried, and at the same time, probably realizing that it was impossible to stop them, spurred his horse and rode to the right.
A fresh crowd of fleeing men streamed past, caught him up, and carried him backwards.
The troops were fleeing in such a dense crowd that, once one landed in the middle of it, it was difficult to get out. Someone shouted, "Keep going, don't drag your feet!" Another, turning around, fired into the air; someone else struck the horse on which Kutuzov himself was riding. Extricating themselves with the greatest effort from the flow of the crowd to the left, Kutuzov and his suite, diminished by more than half, rode towards the sounds of nearby cannon fire. Extricating himself from the crowd of fleeing men, Prince Andrei, trying to keep up with Kutuzov, saw on the slope of the hill, amidst the smoke, a Russian battery still firing, and the French running up to it. Slightly higher stood Russian infantry, neither moving ahead to aid the battery, nor backwards in the direction of the fugitives. A general on horseback separated himself from the infantry and rode up to Kutuzov. There were only four men left in Kutuzov's suite. They were all pale and exchanged glances silently.
"Stop those villains!" Kutuzov said breathlessly to the regimental commander, pointing to the fleeing men; but at the same moment, as if in punishment for those words, bullets, like a flock of birds, flew whistling at the regiment and Kutuzov's suite.
The French had attacked the battery and, seeing Kutuzov, were shooting at him. With this volley, the regimental commander seized his leg; several soldiers fell, and an ensign holding a standard let it drop from his hands; the standard wavered and fell, stopped momentarily by the bayonets of the soldiers around it. The soldiers began firing without any orders.
"Oooh!" Kutuzov moaned with an expression of despair and looked around. "Bolkonsky," he whispered in a voice trembling with awareness of his old man's strengthlessness. "Bolkonsky," he whispered, pointing to the disordered battalion and the enemy, "what's going on?"
But before he finished saying it, Prince Andrei, feeling sobs of shame and anger rising in his throat, was already jumping off his horse and running towards the standard.
"Forward, lads!" he cried in a childishly shrill voice.
"Here it is!" thought Prince Andrei, seizing the staff of the standard and hearing with delight the whistle of bullets, evidently aimed precisely at him. Several soldiers fell.
"Hurrah!" cried Prince Andrei, barely able to hold up the heavy standard, and he ran forward with unquestioning assurance that the entire battalion would run after him.
And indeed he ran only a few steps alone. One soldier started out, another, and the whole battalion, with a shout of "Hurrah!" rushed forward and overtook him. A sergeant of the battalion ran up, took the standard that was wavering in Prince Andrei's hands because of its weight, but was killed at once. Prince Andrei again seized the standard and, dragging it by the staff, ran with the battalion. Ahead of him he saw our artillerists, some of whom were fighting, while others abandoned the cannon and came running in his direction; he also saw French infantrymen, who had seized the artillery horses and were turning the cannon. Prince Andrei and his battalion were now twenty paces from the cannon. Above him he heard the unceasing whistle of bullets, and soldiers ceaselessly gasped and fell to right and left of him. But he did not look at them; he looked fixedly only at what was happening ahead of him-at the battery. He clearly saw the figure of a red-haired gunner, his shako knocked askew, pulling a swab from one side, while a French soldier pulled it towards him from the other side. Prince Andrei saw clearly the bewildered and at the same time angry expression on the faces of the two men, who evidently did not understand what they were doing.
"What are they doing?" Prince Andrei wondered, looking at them. "Why doesn't the red-haired artillerist run away, since he has no weapon? Why doesn't the Frenchman stab him? Before he runs away, the Frenchman will remember his musket and bayonet him."
In fact, another Frenchman with his musket atilt ran up to the fighting men, and the lot of the red-haired artillerist, who still did not understand what awaited him and triumphantly pulled the swab from the French soldier's hands, was about to be decided. But Prince Andrei did not see how it ended. It seemed to him as though one of the nearest soldiers, with the full swing of a stout stick, hit him on the head. It was slightly painful and above all unpleasant, because the pain distracted him and kept him from seeing what he had been looking at.
"What is it? am I falling? are my legs giving way under me?" he thought, and fell on his back. He opened his eyes, hoping to see how the fight between the French and the artillerists ended, and wishing to know whether or not the red-haired artillerist had been killed, whether the cannon had been taken or saved. But he did not see anything. There was nothing over him now except the sky-the lofty sky, not clear, but still immeasurably lofty, with gray clouds slowly creeping across it. "How quiet, calm, and solemn, not at all like when I was running," thought Prince Andrei, "not like when we were running, shouting, and fighting; not at all like when the Frenchman and the artillerist, with angry and frightened faces, were pulling at the swab-it's quite different the way the clouds creep across this lofty, infinite sky. How is it I haven't seen this lofty sky before? And how happy I am that I've finally come to know it. Yes! everything is empty, everything is a deception, except this infinite sky. There is nothing, nothing except that. But there is not even that, there is nothing except silence, tranquillity. And thank God! . . ."
+1 this, because i too am on mind altering medication

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

:rofl: Shocked

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

And people say I have long posts. Laughing Very Happy Twisted Evil Razz lol! :clap: :number1: :rofl: :good: :tongue2: :toppoints: :like: ::bwfcfan::

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

whatsgoingon wrote:There is obviously a polarity issue with the ST some absolutely love it and some absolutely hate it, as I said I am moving away from it because there seems to be an agenda and I don't see them as trustworthy. But I disagree on the fact that this article was bullshit, I think it expressed reasonable concerns and appears to have foundation in much of what was said, and the fact that Anderson has responded quite robustly proves that IMO, had it just been scurrilous scaremongering I don't think he would have even responded.
That said the ST are increasingly looking like a bunch of self serving egotistical pricks looking to enhance their own pathological sense of self importance.
I think Anderson had no choice but to respond robustly mate. Once the BN had asked the question he could hardly do anything else. Had he tried to fob it off or duck it the way the previous regime did he'd have been crucified (rightly) and the entire thing would have gained even more credibility when it most likely deserves none or close to none.

As I've already (repeatedly) said I think there are some disagreements between Ken and Dean but they aren't the "Massive rift" the "ST" would like us to believe they are. I think it's purely about how to move the club forward. In this particular area I think Ken is probably more likely to be right about sorting the finance side first then worrying about climbing the leagues etc. (Assuming this is the core of the difference which their individual statements to date suggests to me).

Personally I think the money IS there to run the club for now but only as is, there's nothing left over to improve the squad etc and to balance the books cuts have had to be made. Unfortunately we can't afford to pay off the "overpaid ponce" brigade so we had to wield the axe elsewhere.

Those of us who remember the eighties will tell you the club didn't go from the brink of extinction to the White Hot Era and then the Prem overnight. In fact it took about four or five years before we really started to see exciting times at Burnden Park again and more than a decade to make the Premier League and stay there for more than one season. I suspect it's going to be a similar story this time around. While I am anxious to get the embargo lifted and a new manager appointed pronto I don't expect us to romp this league then head straight to the Prem the following year. It will take 2-3 years just to steady the ship and sort the mess. If that happens I'll be a very happy Trotter indeed.

If anything the "ST" has actually made me think more positively about Ken, Dean and the club's future. Their posturing and preening has actually convinced me that they care less about the club than how they themselves look on the internet and in the various other media.

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

As I said a week ago, Anderson has had his share of BWFC up for sale for £5M from the 3rd week in. News of a new manager, embargo lift and us possibly moving forward will have to wait..

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

luckyPeterpiper wrote:
whatsgoingon wrote:There is obviously a polarity issue with the ST some absolutely love it and some absolutely hate it, as I said I am moving away from it because there seems to be an agenda and I don't see them as trustworthy. But I disagree on the fact that this article was bullshit, I think it expressed reasonable concerns and appears to have foundation in much of what was said, and the fact that Anderson has responded quite robustly proves that IMO, had it just been scurrilous scaremongering I don't think he would have even responded.
That said the ST are increasingly looking like a bunch of self serving egotistical pricks looking to enhance their own pathological sense of self importance.
I think Anderson had no choice but to respond robustly mate. Once the BN had asked the question he could hardly do anything else. Had he tried to fob it off or duck it the way the previous regime did he'd have been crucified (rightly) and the entire thing would have gained even more credibility when it most likely deserves none or close to none.

As I've already (repeatedly) said I think there are some disagreements between Ken and Dean but they aren't the "Massive rift" the "ST" would like us to believe they are. I think it's purely about how to move the club forward. In this particular area I think Ken is probably more likely to be right about sorting the finance side first then worrying about climbing the leagues etc. (Assuming this is the core of the difference which their individual statements to date suggests to me).

Personally I think the money IS there to run the club for now but only as is, there's nothing left over to improve the squad etc and to balance the books cuts have had to be made. Unfortunately we can't afford to pay off the "overpaid ponce" brigade so we had to wield the axe elsewhere.

Those of us who remember the eighties will tell you the club didn't go from the brink of extinction to the White Hot Era and then the Prem overnight. In fact it took about four or five years before we really started to see exciting times at Burnden Park again and more than a decade to make the Premier League and stay there for more than one season. I suspect it's going to be a similar story this time around. While I am anxious to get the embargo lifted and a new manager appointed pronto I don't expect us to romp this league then head straight to the Prem the following year. It will take 2-3 years just to steady the ship and sort the mess. If that happens I'll be a very happy Trotter indeed.

If anything the "ST" has actually made me think more positively about Ken, Dean and the club's future. Their posturing and preening has actually convinced me that they care less about the club than how they themselves look on the internet and in the various other media.
I think your underestimating the rift, for Anderson to come out and say there is no reason for one of us to ask the football league to investigate or take action means one of them has, which shows the breakdown is significant.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Tolstoy on Nuts? Blimey we are getting cultured.
Appropriate though as there's a damn sight more fiction than fact in this thread.
Guy says he'll put the money in when it's needed and it all kicks off.
Now if he'd said he hadn't got the money that might have been newsworthy.

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Anymore of this highbrow culture and we will all have to start watching a more cultured game such as Cricket.  Of course Nat will then be calling the spin bowlers poncy Bellends.....so some things might not change.

Guest


Guest

Boggersbelief wrote:As I said a week ago, Anderson has had his share of BWFC up for sale for £5M from the 3rd week in. News of a new manager, embargo lift and us possibly moving forward will have to wait..

Nice to know that Uncle Ken's got his priorities right and that he's not just in this to try and exploit the situation and make a quick buck with scant regard for the consequences.

Top man.

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

whatsgoingon wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:
whatsgoingon wrote:There is obviously a polarity issue with the ST some absolutely love it and some absolutely hate it, as I said I am moving away from it because there seems to be an agenda and I don't see them as trustworthy. But I disagree on the fact that this article was bullshit, I think it expressed reasonable concerns and appears to have foundation in much of what was said, and the fact that Anderson has responded quite robustly proves that IMO, had it just been scurrilous scaremongering I don't think he would have even responded.
That said the ST are increasingly looking like a bunch of self serving egotistical pricks looking to enhance their own pathological sense of self importance.
I think Anderson had no choice but to respond robustly mate. Once the BN had asked the question he could hardly do anything else. Had he tried to fob it off or duck it the way the previous regime did he'd have been crucified (rightly) and the entire thing would have gained even more credibility when it most likely deserves none or close to none.

As I've already (repeatedly) said I think there are some disagreements between Ken and Dean but they aren't the "Massive rift" the "ST" would like us to believe they are. I think it's purely about how to move the club forward. In this particular area I think Ken is probably more likely to be right about sorting the finance side first then worrying about climbing the leagues etc. (Assuming this is the core of the difference which their individual statements to date suggests to me).

Personally I think the money IS there to run the club for now but only as is, there's nothing left over to improve the squad etc and to balance the books cuts have had to be made. Unfortunately we can't afford to pay off the "overpaid ponce" brigade so we had to wield the axe elsewhere.

Those of us who remember the eighties will tell you the club didn't go from the brink of extinction to the White Hot Era and then the Prem overnight. In fact it took about four or five years before we really started to see exciting times at Burnden Park again and more than a decade to make the Premier League and stay there for more than one season. I suspect it's going to be a similar story this time around. While I am anxious to get the embargo lifted and a new manager appointed pronto I don't expect us to romp this league then head straight to the Prem the following year. It will take 2-3 years just to steady the ship and sort the mess. If that happens I'll be a very happy Trotter indeed.

If anything the "ST" has actually made me think more positively about Ken, Dean and the club's future. Their posturing and preening has actually convinced me that they care less about the club than how they themselves look on the internet and in the various other media.
I think your underestimating the rift, for Anderson to come out and say there is no reason for one of us to ask the football league to investigate or take action means one of them has, which shows the breakdown is significant.
That's a very large assumption. Are we now to assume anything Ken or Dean say is the precise opposite of what's actually happening? If either Anderson or Holdsworth had actually asked the League to look into this it would have leaked from the league itself to either Sky or the Beeb if not half a dozen major papers. Since none of them are reporting that has happened I'm going to assume it hasn't.

I think the problem you have here is an understandable one given Phil and Eddie's long-time and well known loose connection with reality. But in this case I believe the benefit of the doubt should go to Anderson, especially given the source of the story that sent the BN scurrying to him anyway. I could of course be wrong and if I am I'll be the first to admit it but my feeling is the "ST" are stirring this pot for all it's worth and hoping the maxim "No smoke without fire" will work to their benefit.

Guest


Guest

The connection with the ST being the fact Manning was involved in the set up?

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

bwfc1874 wrote:The connection with the ST being the fact Manning was involved in the set up?
Indeed and that this entire incident started with an article posted by Manning on his LoV site yesterday morning. I actually posted it here and said I believed there must be some truth to it, that he surely wasn't stupid enough to lie so blatantly. It now appears to me that I was wrong and worse, that quite a few people believe it. Look at the last sentence of the BN article. "The Supporters Trust has written an official letter etc".

It's my honest opinion that Manning engineered the entire situation simply to get that sentence into the BN and give the "ST" more credibility. The fact they don't have any elected officers yet seems to be of no importance to Manning, LoV, the steering group or sadly Iles and the BN.

Once the BN asked Anderson about this (some hours AFTER the "story" appeared on LoV) he was left with no choice but to answer and that simply gave the "ST" another fillip of publicity. Personally I find the whole business to be distasteful and the way the BN has allowed itself to be manipulated so shamelessly saddens me. It's just as bad as when they were spouting Ed and Phil's junk as gospel and it doesn't really surprise me that the Steering Group has at least two members who had previous links to Eddie and Phil. It seems they're still playing Eddie's game, at least to me. Yes I may be paranoid and wrong but it looks this way from where I sit. I'd like to be proven wrong but frankly I'm not expecting it any time soon.

Guest


Guest

A bit like Sluffy, you could be right. But you're basing that entire theory and chain of events on one small bit of information. You both seem to fill in some pretty large blanks and decide that's the most likely scenario. The ST would have had next to no coverage from these two stories had it not been for Sluffy and yours theory, ironically you've both created more attention for the ST than Iles throw away line ever would have.

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

From the point of view of the ST, they appear to be increasingly alienating themselves from the club and not building bridges.

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