"Coolest monkey in the jungle!"

Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.

For what it's worth i don't think H&M are racists but someone must have seen this prior to it going online and someone should have thought hang on this is going to cause an issue.

This was featured on Sky News a couple of days ago. The odious Kay Burley was interviewing a black journalist about it, and he made the valid point that, whilst it might have been misguided, on the part of H & M, it wasn´t racist per se, in his opinion. He also pointed out that the parents of the child appear not to have had a problem with their son modelling it. Was this good enough for Ms Burley? No, she insisted that it was racist and then said that even H & M had admitted it was. THEY HADN´T, but they did admit they had "got it wrong" and the article was withdrawn from sale. Said black journalist pointed out that many people refer to their children as cheeky monkeys and he asked Burley why it was racist. All she could come up with was "Oh, come on, most people would think it was racist!". The mother has since said that people should get over it. She is apparently a Kenyan living in Sweden and of course H & M is a Swedish brand. I think the point is that only in the UK would there be a furore, as the PC brigade and thought police have a vested interest in seeing racism (or any other ism) at every turn. In Spain they celebrate the 6th January as the  Dia del Reyes , which to the Spanish is like our Christmas Day. They have a parade, featuring the Three Kings. Several white Spanish males are blacked up in full regal costumes, running through the crowd and handing out sweets to people. Because of all the diversity issues I am sure that this would be entirely verboten in the UK. Then I thought, is anyone here up in arms? Is anyone offended - never mind black people, but white people being offended on their behalf? Ms Burley would no doubt be angry with any black Spaniards who were not offended and did not see blacked up white people as racist (as she was with her guest), but I come back to the point that it is only in the UK where one encounters this phenomenon. Why? I have my own theory on this but I´ll keep my powder dry for now.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/get-over-it-says-mother-of-boy-in-row-over-racist-handm-hoodie/ar-BBIeXbY?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout


This also shows that the black mother is not being allowed to not be offended. The PC fascists are all over her like a rash.

I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.

Keegan wrote:Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.

Correct me if I'm wrong Keegs, but what is considered offensive varies from culture to culture, person to person, who is saying it and also varies over time doesn't it? 

Question I have for you is, are there things that your friends and relatives might call you that isn't offensive because it comes from them, but would be if it came from someone else? In Greece for example, "bastard" is a term of endearment, but only from the right people in the right circumstances, similar to the use of the N word in old school rap music.

To that end, is it not the case that the real definition of a racist comment should NOT be based on the actual comment/word itself but rather on the context and intention of the person saying it? 

I think that's why "politically correct linguistics" are such a minefield to get sorted because when we get down to analysing a person or newspapers "intentions" we almost always enter the very same world of stereotyping and assumption.

On that basis I don't think the problem will ever go away, but at least recognising that some things will offend some people some of the time in some circumstances might eventually ameliorate the issue of insensitive marketing.

boltonbonce wrote:I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.

For many years I've had people comment on my Welsh nationality, , sheep shaggers, the rhyme Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief', etc. add to that my lack of height, (5'4"), and its made me a target of abuse most of my life. Have I ever expected the likes of Kay Burley, and the do-gooders in the nation, to stand up for me? No, I haven't. Instead I've taken it in good humour, mostly, but is the abuse the same as that given to many black people. Not necessarily, even though there's been a history of it, but its almost on a par, depending on how sensitive I am. 

I think Wanders comment is spot on.

boltonbonce wrote:I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.

Agree with you Bonce, if you’ve suffered racial abuse you are more likely to be sensitive to events like this.

wanderlust wrote:

Keegan wrote:Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.

Correct me if I'm wrong Keegs, but what is considered offensive varies from culture to culture, person to person, who is saying it and also varies over time doesn't it? 

Question I have for you is, are there things that your friends and relatives might call you that isn't offensive because it comes from them, but would be if it came from someone else? In Greece for example, "bastard" is a term of endearment, but only from the right people in the right circumstances, similar to the use of the N word in old school rap music.

To that end, is it not the case that the real definition of a racist comment should NOT be based on the actual comment/word itself but rather on the context and intention of the person saying it? 

I think that's why "politically correct linguistics" are such a minefield to get sorted because when we get down to analysing a person or newspapers "intentions" we almost always enter the very same world of stereotyping and assumption.

On that basis I don't think the problem will ever go away, but at least recognising that some things will offend some people some of the time in some circumstances might eventually ameliorate the issue of insensitive marketing.

I'm pleased that Kev ( Keegan ) responded because he talks from experience. A few years ago we had a debate on here involving the N word and Kev explained his thought processes and viewpoint. What was amusing to me was that Kev had no problem with the term ' Jungle Bunny '. In fact, he said he actually quite liked the phrase. Now I wouldn't dream of calling anyone a jungle bunny but clearly different people from different backgrounds have different viewpoints and what someone finds offensive, others may not. This is a prime example. What I object to is those who take offence by proxy on behalf of someone else.

Agree with much of what you’ve written there RT.

Regardless of whether it was intentionally racist or not, you have to question the wisdom of the marketing team on this one. It's blindingly obvious that some people would take offence to it, so just don't bother. Use a different advertisement and none of it ever happens, it's not rocket science.

Saying that though, what makes me think it could be intentional, is the fact that this is now a talking point everywhere. I would never have known about this ad had it not been for all the furore.

As they say, no publicity is bad publicity.

Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.

Well maybe instead of deleting the ad they should have put a white kid on instead, I'd like to see what they made of that.

boltonbonce wrote:Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.

Loved this I wish it was shown on repeats probes my fav ever show

Angry Dad wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.

Loved this I wish it was shown on repeats probes my fav ever show

Great stuff.

T.R.O.Y wrote:Agree with much of what you’ve written there RT.

I'm glad we can agree on something! Having revisited this post today I owe you an apology for some of my comments towards you last night. My anger on this subject should not have been directed towards you and having re-read your comments I feel I was a tad harsh. Happy to hold my hand up on this occasion.

If you find the hoodie racist (as a white person) doesn't that make you racist?

If you see the word monkey and then connect it to the colour of a persons skin, seems racist to me.

I think the question is more, should people be offended by this than is the hoodie racist.