Boris Johnson to be our next Prime Minister?

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I believe that immediately after the referendum the Leavers actually thought they had won, and there was very little they had to do other than tidy up the loose ends. How wrong they were ! However, in the vacuum, the Remainers stepped, moaning, arguing, betraying promises, and generally making a dogs dinner of any and every attempt to reach some sort of agreement. Of course the Leavers were slow to the party, and when they joined, things got worse. They were not only trying to defend or express sometimes poorly put arguments, but were reeling from personal abuse and character assassinations by the Remainers. A very difficult uphill slog. Both sides polarised very quickly, becoming entrenched in their own personal views and remedies, with no room for compromise. Every politician had their own view, and nobody would alter it. 
Although a lot of the current situation still remains, we now have an opportunity to change it. I only hope Parliament is allowed at least a chance at this, without being stifled by those remainers who know what they don't want, have no idea on how to fix this stalemate, and are not prepared to do anythng other than go against the referendum, and bend the knee to Europe.

Using a phrase like "bend the knee to Europe" is so ridiculous. Remainers are not bending their knees by wanting to continue to enjoy the benefits of remaining in the EU. Whilst we are members we are in no way subservient to the EU. This has been pointed out many times. You appear to prefer the lies spouted by Boris rather than the evidence (for example his recent lies about kippers).

And you have the gall to accuse me of "making emotive comments"!

  I thought you might bridle at that knee comment.
The truth is, to enjoy the benefits of remaining in the EU, you have to live by their rules. Its as simple as that. 
So saying that you are in no way subservient does seem a little odd to me.

T.R.O.Y wrote:There’s only been one agreement on offer - May’s deal. Are you honestly suggesting remainers alone ruined that Glos?

No, in fairness TROY, May ruined that one by nodding everything through without too much thought. What the remainers did, in my view, was to stop every attempt to recover from the situation, whilst pushing for their own personal views/gains, often saying they're doing it for the benefit of the country, when, in fact, they were damaging the image and reputation of the oldest and most respected of Parliament..

I’d argue you can’t accuse remain MPs of that and not those pushing leave. Both have acted in their own self interests, this remain/leave polarisation needs to end, we need a solution. Not much choice but to see what Boris comes back with - although I reiterate positivity from remainers wouldn’t have changed anything and won’t affect the Irish backstop. This needs thought and diplomacy.

Glos,
You say that remainers became entrenched with no room for compromise.
What compromise was possible? The referendum was either IN or OUT. People voted on that basis.
If ,as a remainer ,you had firm views and bore  in mind the 17 odd million who voted Remain why should you compromise on a decision like this. It was a  referendum, not legally binding and it was Cameron who said that he would stick by the result. He had NO right say that. Parliament makes laws- not prime ministers.
And as for bending the knee to 'their' laws. They're our laws as well as we're still a member and have a say in what laws are passed.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I believe that immediately after the referendum the Leavers actually thought they had won, and there was very little they had to do other than tidy up the loose ends. How wrong they were ! However, in the vacuum, the Remainers stepped, moaning, arguing, betraying promises, and generally making a dogs dinner of any and every attempt to reach some sort of agreement. Of course the Leavers were slow to the party, and when they joined, things got worse. They were not only trying to defend or express sometimes poorly put arguments, but were reeling from personal abuse and character assassinations by the Remainers. A very difficult uphill slog. Both sides polarised very quickly, becoming entrenched in their own personal views and remedies, with no room for compromise. Every politician had their own view, and nobody would alter it. 
Although a lot of the current situation still remains, we now have an opportunity to change it. I only hope Parliament is allowed at least a chance at this, without being stifled by those remainers who know what they don't want, have no idea on how to fix this stalemate, and are not prepared to do anythng other than go against the referendum, and bend the knee to Europe.

Using a phrase like "bend the knee to Europe" is so ridiculous. Remainers are not bending their knees by wanting to continue to enjoy the benefits of remaining in the EU. Whilst we are members we are in no way subservient to the EU. This has been pointed out many times. You appear to prefer the lies spouted by Boris rather than the evidence (for example his recent lies about kippers).

And you have the gall to accuse me of "making emotive comments"!

  I thought you might bridle at that knee comment.
The truth is, to enjoy the benefits of remaining in the EU, you have to live by their rules. Its as simple as that. 
So saying that you are in no way subservient does seem a little odd to me.

As rammy has already pointed out as we're still a member we have a say in what laws are passed.

If we are subservient why did we not adopt the Euro?

Good points chaps, however, I believe the remainers took their responses to the extreme too quickly, becoming entrenched, using every means at their disposal, even archaic laws, in such a way that it was almost impossible to change, something the egotists of parliament couldn't consider.
I agree that people would, could, and should, argue their point, but they should also be prepared to compromise. This wasn't forthcoming from either side, especially the remainers, although I would say that because the remainers had nothing to lose and everything to gain, (from their point of view), they were the more vociferous, and most inflexible, and using some very dubious tactics.
Although some believe that this referendum is/was 'illegal', let us not forget that it was subsequently voted on by all of Parliament, at a time they could have said no, but which was passed, and committed to, unanimously. It became law some time ago now, and one that all those self same politicians are now reneging on. I would say that their actions are the real dishonest ones.
As this is such a fast moving situation, I tend not to worry too much what has happened to get us to where we are, although learning lessons on the way is important. I genuinely feel that we need to focus on whats about to happen, and actually consider the events to come.
Both sides feel let down, for whatever reasons, and the root cause to my mind is the behaviour  and chicanery of the politicians. They've dug a big hole for us, and have the gall to ask that we decide how to get them out, by suggesting a second referendum. Ludicrous.
Like him or not, Marmite Boris has already made more big decisions in two days than the whole of the May government. Only time will show whether he is the right person for the job, but right now, at least, he's getting government working again. I just hope that his efforts aren't ruined by those politicians already plotting his downfall, and I ask 'for what reason' ?

XM:

As rammy has already pointed out as we're still a member we have a say in what laws are passed. 

If we are subservient why did we not adopt the Euro?


Simple really, at the time we not only had the political will, but also the political standing to make our demands stick. Although I'm sure the cost of doing so also played a part.

So if our political will was not to be a part of the Euro, surely that entirely disproves your original point?

Should we end up getting a trade deal with the US which pushes common rules/standards, will you then be complaining we are subservient to them?

T.R.O.Y wrote:So if our political will was not to be a part of the Euro, surely that entirely disproves your original point?

Should we end up getting a trade deal with the US which pushes common rules/standards, will you then be complaining we are subservient to them?

We've been on our knees in front of the United States for years. If we suck any harder our heads will cave in.

T.R.O.Y wrote:So if our political will was not to be a part of the Euro, surely that entirely disproves your original point?

Should we end up getting a trade deal with the US which pushes common rules/standards, will you then be complaining we are subservient to them?

No, that was before the referendum, and a completely different political landscape.
Unlike the EU, the USA cannot interfere with our laws, whereas the EU, until the end of October, still can, although, as Bonce points out, we do have a 'close' relationship with USA   . Another big difference is that any deals will be negotiated, I'm assuming, without any 'backstop' type agreement.
We all know that international politics/trade at such a level will call on all and any points/issues that will influence the deal in their favour. After all, we've seen it applied quite severely by the EU. On that basis I expect negotiations with the USA to be more amicable, although the arm twisting and wheeling and dealing will be just as intense. We already work really well with the Americans on many levels, as we do with the Europeans, however, I feel we will be competing more with our close neighbours than we are the USA. Also, our reputation for food and working standards are well known, and hard earned. I cannot see these being negotiated away, just for a quick deal. Lets not forget that we are a relatively rich and powerful country, and have some leeway in what we can offer and accept.

gloswhite wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:So if our political will was not to be a part of the Euro, surely that entirely disproves your original point?

Should we end up getting a trade deal with the US which pushes common rules/standards, will you then be complaining we are subservient to them?

No, that was before the referendum, and a completely different political landscape.
Unlike the EU, the USA cannot interfere with our laws, whereas the EU, until the end of October, still can, although, as Bonce points out, we do have a 'close' relationship with USA   . Another big difference is that any deals will be negotiated, I'm assuming, without any 'backstop' type agreement.
We all know that international politics/trade at such a level will call on all and any points/issues that will influence the deal in their favour. After all, we've seen it applied quite severely by the EU. On that basis I expect negotiations with the USA to be more amicable, although the arm twisting and wheeling and dealing will be just as intense. We already work really well with the Americans on many levels, as we do with the Europeans, however, I feel we will be competing more with our close neighbours than we are the USA. Also, our reputation for food and working standards are well known, and hard earned. I cannot see these being negotiated away, just for a quick deal. Lets not forget that we are a relatively rich and powerful country, and have some leeway in what we can offer and accept.

You do come across as a bit naive at times glos. When we negotiate with the USA we will be in a much weaker position than the EU. Trump has already indicated the kind of deal we will be offered. We will have to lower our food standards to American levels to allow them to sell us chlorine flavoured chicken and hormone stuffed beef with no requirements for identifying the source. Read this for the impact on the NHS: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwizvJOVvdLjAhXtQUEAHTDtAmsQFjAHegQIBxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fbusiness%2Fcomment%2Fbrexit-trade-trump-us-liz-truss-boris-johnson-cabinet-deal-a9021716.html&usg=AOvVaw335crfsOCpG1TRh6b7Y7gU
And to top it off Liz Truss will be leading our negotiations.

With Boris being a big fan of Trump you will get to see what subservience truly looks like.

These people that believe Bojo will get a deal with the EU, do they also put food out for the Faeries in the bottom of their gardens?

sunlight wrote:These people that believe Bojo will get a deal with the EU, do they also put food out for the Faeries in the bottom of their gardens?

Boris absolutely destroyed Corbyn in his first outing.

Corbyn has been living it up with may. He is now back to where he was with Cameron. Thoroughly out of his depth.

Boris also did a number on mcdonnel that I can't stop watching. Hilarious.

Ah great, nothing to worry about in that case then, let’s forget the lying, right wing cabinet - the guy’s clearly a hoot!

Right wing. Get a grip. But I'm not surprised you're rattled. Corbyn has never been further from power.

Name a more right wing cabinet in the last 30 years and I will get a grip.

No idea why you’re writing off Labours chances, Boris has an awful record and is massively unpopular outside of a leave vote which is split. I can’t see him winning a majority at an election.

Sadly, Boris came across as what he is. A blustering buffoon. It will, of course, be very entertaining, but in the worst possible way.

boltonbonce wrote:Sadly, Boris came across as what he is. A blustering buffoon. It will, of course, be very entertaining, but in the worst possible way.

To make matters worse, JC and the Labour Party are too busy navel gazing to offer much of a fight.