How is the Tory government doing?

okocha wrote:
Very fair of you, Lusty. I take it all back.....you are as thick as a plank....

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:Are you implying that Okocha and I are the same person? Surely as an administrator you can see that we're not given that I'm in Norfolk and Okocha is in .....Bolton or somewhere oop north?

Clearly a case of mistaken identity:

okocha wrote:
Very fair of you, Lusty. I take it all back.....you are as thick as a plank....

boltonbonce wrote:
And knows nothing about chins.

wanderlust wrote:
Of course not.

I am questioning why the government is too stupid to set up a simple system to run security checks on immigrants, issue identity cards, and match them with jobs in the sectors we are grossly understaffed in such as food production where the latest estimates say we are short of half a million workers.

Other countries have no problem in setting conditions of entry that include no state benefits unless you contribute, having a job to go to and paying taxes but it is obviously beyond the wit of these idiots.

Instead, they'd rather make us - the taxpayer - pay 4 times:

- the cost of their ridiculous efforts to keep immigrants out regardless of their skill set
- the cost of sending our food production to landfill and slaughtering tens of thousands of pigs and sheep which altogether runs into £ billions wasted
- the cost of rising food prices to consumers as a result
- the cost of failing food sector businesses and benefits to people who can no longer earn enough to pay the rising costs the government is partially responsible for creating

And who knows - amongst the immigrants there may be much-needed doctors, nurses, policemen, engineers, construction workers etc?

Surely you agree that stopping access to benefits unless contributing (for say a minimum of three years), issuing residential ID cards and investing in the vetting and support of workers into targeted jobs - and thereby further offsetting costs with tax revenue is the way to go?

If the fear of Brexiteers is unregulated immigration, one crystal clear "Brexit Opportunity" - which the government have failed to grasp - is the opportunity to create clear, unambiguous criteria for immigration (and for refugees for that matter) backed up with a smart streamlined process to get the people that we need into the jobs we can't fill - and we can pay for the service/admin, housing and support with the savings and profits our industries will make, our increased production, and the taxes we generate from both the businesses and individuals.
An improved NHS and fresher and cheaper foodstuffs would be the cherry on top.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Unfortunately being a simple, uneducated soul as Oko says, I’m nowhere near qualified to respond properly to your most eloquent and detailed reply but I do have a good deal of common sense and prefer to take a pragmatic rather than simplistic view on things.

In fairness Lusty, much of what you say is reasonable and sensible apart from being totally unrealistic in practise. I suppose you need to start with who you believe these people are in the first place, refugees or economic migrants. To me the vast majority are not refugees and are not fleeing terror but have seen a better life here than where they were. Now I have only admiration for those who want to better themselves but I have a problem with those who run away because the grass is greener somewhere else rather than stay and fight for your own country to improve.

I accept that’s difficult but for thousands of years that’s what people here did when invaders came and it’s what built our country into probably the most tolerant and understanding country in the world. Forget the Brexit cracks because it’s nothing to do with Brexit. Most of these people are coming here attracted by our benefits system, I’m 100% in agreement with you on that and changing that in my opinion would have the biggest effect of anything in reducing numbers coming here. Why they don’t do that I don’t know but just accepting everybody in here and setting them to work sounds good but is totally impractical. The first priority of any government is the protection of its people and given where most of these young men are coming from, to let them in without knowing who they are or what their background is, is completely out of the question. It’s a difficult quandry to solve and I don’t think dispatching these people to some other place is any kind of a solution but neither is what you suggest, sensible as it may sound on the face of it.

Whitesince63 wrote:You’re suggestions sound brilliant on the face of it Lusty but in reality are both impractical and in some cases probably infringe the law. We can’t force immigrants to do either public service work or crop picking as you suggest as I’m sure it could infringe their human rights. It would be wonderful if most of these people were highly educated or doctors, scientists or engineers but the likelihood is that they aren’t educated, have no skills to speak of and don’t speak the language anyway. The majority would likely disappear into the murky world of crime and black market gangs, or even worse, terrorist groups. 

These people come from completely different cultures and societies, have different religions and habits and mainly from non democratic countries and you can’t just expect them to automatically fit in. Also, if you aren’t going to limit the numbers where are you going to house them, educate them and heal them when they’re sick? We already have numbers coming each year approximately the population of somewhere like Coventry. We have an NHS waiting list of over 6 million, our own people sleeping on the streets and now a considerable number more in poverty due to the energy increases and inflationary situation, so isn’t it better to address that first before encouraging even more migrants to come here?

Like most, including Brexiteers, I’m not at all against immigration for those wishing and able to make a valid contribution here, or for genuine refugees as we’re now seeing from Ukraine and who are definitely fleeing terror but the simple fact is that the majority coming across aren’t fleeing terror and as you yourself have admitted, are purely financial migrants coming here to get what they can. I don’t blame them for that but I do blame us for allowing it and more so for people like you who encourage it.

wanderlust wrote:
When I worked in the Middle East in the 70s as an agent/importer for British construction materials I had a big office, loads of staff and a fancy job title - but still I was considered a "guest worker" and required a "sponsor" to be there. My sponsor happened to be a royal sheikh and as per the law I had to hand my passport to him on arrival and he held on to it as the law made him responsible for my conduct - and he could put me on a plane at any time he fancied.

A harsh programme but it alleviated all the fears of the population (there were 7 times more guest workers than indigenous people) and we guest workers had no problem integrating although Europeans and Americans tended to live together in compounds in the same way southeast Asian and Afro Caribbean communities tend to group together in this country.

A more humane version of the guest worker system could easily work for us,

I'm suggesting we change the law not break it.

And rather than "force them" to e.g. pick crops, we give them a choice - work and pay taxes or don't come in - it's their choice as it is in many countries.

If they get sick, they'll have private health insurance.

And as regards looking after our own poor, surely the best way to do that is to support the economy and keep prices down - which a guest worker scheme would help do.

Whitesince63 wrote:

I don’t in essence disagree with any of that Lusty, it could be an answer but sadly I just don’t see it being feasible for the UK. With respect, your own experience includes yourself being a genuine, well educated and skilled employee who’s intention and selection was always to do a job and return home. The immigrants situation is totally different. For a start they don’t have a passport or any other documentation. We don’t know where they’re from or what skills or education they might have. Also, if things don’t work out we can’t “send them back”. That’s part of the problem surely, so we’re stuck with them. We can’t even expel criminals or Taliban torturers due to the ECHR hence my point about breaking the law. I would though agree with you about changing that one and coming out of the ECHR altogether, though I suspect you wouldn’t.

There isn’t an easy solution to this I’m afraid and just weakening the rules to allow these people in, isn’t I’m afraid as positive or simple as the picture you paint. If we do change laws to make things easier do you seriously think that will reduce the flow because I can only see it encouraging even more and making the problem worse. We are a small island, we have serious problems at the moment for those already here, let alone what’s going on in Ukraine and we just can’t keep taking the millions arriving here from countries in the world suffering problems. We’ve already recently taken people from Afghanistan, Ukraine, Hong Kong, African countries and Middle Eastern countries, just how many do you think we can afford to take? There has to be a limit and despite your dislike of the Tory’s Lusty, even you must see that?

Whitesince63 wrote:For goodness sake Lusty, can’t you leave Brexit out of one response? You really are totally obsessed with it and I’d be seriously worried if I were you. Again you’re simplifying a very serious issue. We aren’t the only country suffering problems from immigration. Germany, France, Sweden, in fact most Western governments are concerned at the increase in race related problems since the influx of Middle Eastern immigrants. Our security services are already up to their eyes in tracking those here now, every week terrorist plots are uncovered and dealt with without getting into the news. You’re either oblivious to it or intentionally ignoring it. The FACT is that whether it’s a small percentage or not, the bigger the number of immigrants the bigger the threat. YOUR government, like them or not, are intent on securing our safety from the threats these people quite definitely present, so for once in your life, accept that, give them some credit and hope that neither you or your family ever suffer the consequences of a terrorist attack. That’s not being dramatic just real.

Whitesince63 wrote:I give up Lusty, just have it your own way, I’m done with you.

Whitesince63 wrote:I give up Lusty, just have it your own way, I’m done with you.

Whitesince63 wrote:Even this response illustrates your complete reluctance to accept an alternative argument. It’s as if you can’t possibly be wrong and whenever somebody posts a counter to you, you just have to go off at a tangent with yet another condemnation. I’ve tried numerous times to answer your questions and give reasons for my position but you totally ignore and reject them and carry on telling me you’re right. Look back over discussions both on here and on Brexit. Even where I’ve actually agreed with you on certain aspects, you overlook it and carry on with your rant. I know you and Sluffy have a long standing problem with each other, which I’ve actually tried to avoid but I really do think that you need to accept that you have a problem accepting that maybe your view is wrong. 

You make many very good points and I totally respect your right to make them but your view is exactly that, your view. Others have different views but you never accept they may be right and always insist it’s yours that are, endlessly posting to prove it. There’s just no point entering into dialogue with you Lusty if you’re only ever going to believe your view is the right one. On Brexit the public voted for it 3 times, once in the referendum, then in the Euro elections and finally in the 2019 election yet you still can’t bring yourself to accept you are the wrong one. If a referendum was held again tomorrow to rejoin, it would massively fail because we’ve now seen even more clearly what a Franco/German run mess the EU is. If there were a general election next month, despite all the issues, the Tories would still walk it. You’re an excellent poster Lusty but you just need to chill out a bit and accept that you might just not always be right.

Whitesince63 wrote:Even this response illustrates your complete reluctance to accept an alternative argument. It’s as if you can’t possibly be wrong and whenever somebody posts a counter to you, you just have to go off at a tangent with yet another condemnation. I’ve tried numerous times to answer your questions and give reasons for my position but you totally ignore and reject them and carry on telling me you’re right. Look back over discussions both on here and on Brexit. Even where I’ve actually agreed with you on certain aspects, you overlook it and carry on with your rant. I know you and Sluffy have a long standing problem with each other, which I’ve actually tried to avoid but I really do think that you need to accept that you have a problem accepting that maybe your view is wrong. 

You make many very good points and I totally respect your right to make them but your view is exactly that, your view. Others have different views but you never accept they may be right and always insist it’s yours that are, endlessly posting to prove it. There’s just no point entering into dialogue with you Lusty if you’re only ever going to believe your view is the right one. On Brexit the public voted for it 3 times, once in the referendum, then in the Euro elections and finally in the 2019 election yet you still can’t bring yourself to accept you are the wrong one. If a referendum was held again tomorrow to rejoin, it would massively fail because we’ve now seen even more clearly what a Franco/German run mess the EU is. If there were a general election next month, despite all the issues, the Tories would still walk it. You’re an excellent poster Lusty but you just need to chill out a bit and accept that you might just not always be right.