Keir Starmer - new Labour leader

Norpig wrote:The party is in turmoil as far as i can see. Working class people now see labour as a load of champagne socialists and that the party has been taken over by left wing middle class people who pander to immigrants and ignore their old voting base.

Not sure what Starmer can do to change those perceptions but the party are just not trusted at the moment.

Not sure that is entirely the case. I think the traditional working class vote has simply dried up. Kids of working class families no longer see social injustice on the same scale as in the post industrial and post war periods and have become consumerist generations with even the poorest families having TVs, phones and other luxuries even if they're unemployed.
Whilst Starmer may be more representative of the middle classes, I just don't think there's any appetite for socialism any more - as demonstrated by Corbyn's failure to get traction.
Add to that the cultural shift towards self-interest and there's not much left (pardon the pun)
For Labour to survive with a view to thriving in the future it's not a matter of  centre v left of the party as neither will succeed, but rather finding a way to become a credible opposition to the government based on policies and strategies that highlight inequity in society rather than trotting out (again apologies) old cliches. Repackage and relaunch.
Problem is they'll be moving in on Libdem territory.

Trust me Lusty i know plenty of working class men in Bolton who regularly talk about all the things i've mentioned in my previous post. My facebook page has plenty of evidence!

It looks as though the Labour party are struggling with Long Corbyn.

Labour hold Warrington.

Seems Starmer is going to deal with sorting out 'long Corbyn' as left winger Rayner get's the chop behind the scenes.

Angela Rayner removed from party chair role - Labour sources

Labour sources have confirmed that the deputy leader of the Labour Party, Angela Rayner, has been removed from her roles as party chair and campaign co-ordinator.

This isn't expected to affect her role as deputy leader of the party, which is an elected position.

Sluffy wrote:Seems Starmer is going to deal with sorting out 'long Corbyn' as left winger Rayner get's the chop behind the scenes.

Angela Rayner removed from party chair role - Labour sources

Labour sources have confirmed that the deputy leader of the Labour Party, Angela Rayner, has been removed from her roles as party chair and campaign co-ordinator.

This isn't expected to affect her role as deputy leader of the party, which is an elected position.

Looking for an easy scapegoat. It wasn't that long ago he was berating Boris for blaming everyone but himself for the failing Brexit negotiations.
Have a look at yourself, Keir.

Elections 2021: Labour insiders on Starmer, what went wrong and how to fix it

Full article here -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57024995

Extracts -

While the pandemic has blunted Starmer's ability to oppose the government outright, some who supported his leadership are wondering why he is stumbling in much more favourable political weather when it should have been the government that was on the back foot, over "sleaze".

One of them told us that Starmer's task now, is "to incinerate the politics of the far left". Meanwhile some on the left are calling for "radical change".



A prominent politician who spent some time campaigning in Hartlepool blamed the hollowing out of the party during the Corbyn era, with strong organisational, as much as political expertise and experience, lost. Another, who spent a lot of time on the town's doorsteps, said the party was afflicted by the phenomenon of "long Corbyn".


One frontbencher said at least people weren't angry with Labour any more. They just weren't particularly inspired either.

This, he assessed, was a weird election where people were interested in vaccines and the lifting of restrictions. "People ask me 'Is the Tory sleaze stuff cutting through?' The honest answer is virtually nothing is cutting through."

(As I stated in my amatuer analysis a week or so back, Labour simply is no longer seeing things through the electorates eyes, they still hold dear values that most people no longer share because their mindset is different then peoples were twenty, thirty or even more years ago.

They simply are not connecting to many of the electorate anymore).

"The party nationally is just saying to people 'I'm on your side'. We are not bringing stuff forward to help really transform the lives of people in the North. The party still looks and sounds like a metropolitan, middle class party."



"People get a sense of who Boris is and what he's about," said one Yorkshire MP. "You know they've got the measure of him. The problem with Keir is that people don't have the measure of him yet."


Steve Reed was sent round the broadcast studios on Friday morning to assert the problem wasn't Starmer, but the party. And the leader will "push harder" to change the party, not vice versa.

Insiders say as a reaction to the election results, two things are likely to happen. First, changes in staffing at the Labour HQ, including a strengthening of the communications team. Second, a reshuffle of the shadow cabinet.

(Rayner's sacking confirms the first element and and inevitable Shadow Cabinet reshuffle will clearly soon follow).

boltonbonce wrote:

Sluffy wrote:Seems Starmer is going to deal with sorting out 'long Corbyn' as left winger Rayner get's the chop behind the scenes.

Angela Rayner removed from party chair role - Labour sources

Labour sources have confirmed that the deputy leader of the Labour Party, Angela Rayner, has been removed from her roles as party chair and campaign co-ordinator.

This isn't expected to affect her role as deputy leader of the party, which is an elected position.

Looking for an easy scapegoat. It wasn't that long ago he was berating Boris for blaming everyone but himself for the failing Brexit negotiations.
Have a look at yourself, Keir.

Fwiw my view is that Starmer has been hamstrung with taking on the polices of Corbyn (partly in order to get himself elected as leader in the first place) and has not been able to deliver a different vision of the party because of it - and thus if you like - the same outcome as the 2019 General Election.

Think of it as the first half of our season when we had Phoenix team but under the leadership of Evatt who clearly didn't like what he took on and could not do anything about it until the January window.

Thursday's elections was if you like, when Sharon realised Phoenix plan was utter rubbish and she acted to do something about it by ditching them and allowing Evatt to build his own team and give it a new revamp, to become more relevant and more successful.

I guess it is up to the Labour Party to stand behind Starmer and back him to succeed as Sharon did with Evatt - and that means dumping 'Corbynism' like Sharon dumped Phoenix.

It's not saying that Labour should sell its soul but rather bring its soul into relevance with the current times and becoming relevant once again to the people who cast their votes.

There's a reason why dinosaurs died out and that is because they didn't adapt to change.

If you get my drift...?

Dinosaurs couldn't adapt to change. I'm probably a dinosaur myself, but what can I do?

If you're a believer in God, when others think you're a fool for doing so, do you 'adapt' by going with the flow?

I'm a socialist. Like I'm a Wanderer. I won't be dying out. If people don't want us, so be it. I've already left the party, so I've no dog in this fight.

boltonbonce wrote:Dinosaurs couldn't adapt to change. I'm probably a dinosaur myself, but what can I do?

If you're a believer in God, when others think you're a fool for doing so, do you 'adapt' by going with the flow?

I'm a socialist. Like I'm a Wanderer. I won't be dying out. If people don't want us, so be it. I've already left the party, so I've no dog in this fight.

I'd thought you rejoined, must have misread something you posted I guess?

I think maybe you've drawn red lines sometime in the past that you simply won't cross.

But what if the context in which you drew them and become so meaningful to you has over time changed - should they still remain 'hard' red lines, or could you not adapt and change them to still fulfil your beliefs but now within a modern framework?

You no doubt want equality and fairness for all - but if you die out like the dinosaurs then you nor anybody else will achieve that will you/they?

Wouldn't it be more meaningful if come to terms that perhaps some of things you might believe to be sacred can no longer be achieved by how they might have been in the past?

It doesn't mean there can't be new ways to achieve your beliefs though does it?

There's more than one way to skin a cat - or so they say.

One way of doing it if you will is to look around and get a feel for what is actually happening now and not what you believe should be happening, make your plans (policy/manifesto promises, etc) once you have read the people/society correctly (and not the longest suiside note in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_longest_suicide_note_in_history - or the second longest - https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/ ) then put your plan into action, then reflect on the effects and follow the four stages again.

It's better explained here -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

The thing I guess I'm saying is don't give up the fight but simply change how you fight because the cause is worthy but the traditional means of delivery as to what you want has simply over the years become obsolete - ie nationalisation.

What a surprise eh!

I did happen to tell you all what his game was when he refused to go in to lockdown when Covid was running rampant in Greater Manchester - all just to gain a higher political profile for himself!

Election results: 'Party should get in touch if they need me' - Labour's Andy Burnham does not dismiss future leadership bid

https://news.sky.com/story/election-results-party-should-get-in-touch-if-they-need-me-labours-andy-burnham-does-not-dismiss-future-leadership-bid-12300272

I did rejoin, Sluffy, but quit again after a rather heated meeting.

Sorry to see Count Binface didn't make London Mayor.

But to hell with politics, nothing will wipe the smile off my face today.

boltonbonce wrote:I did rejoin, Sluffy, but quit again after a rather heated meeting.

Sorry to see Count Binface didn't make London Mayor.

But to hell with politics, nothing will wipe the smile off my face today.

The preface to Treasure Island is rather apt, I think.



If sailor tales to sailor tunes,
   Storm and adventure, heat and cold,
If schooners, islands, and maroons,
   And buccaneers, and buried gold,
And all the old romance, retold
   Exactly in the ancient way,
Can please, as me they pleased of old,
   The wiser youngsters of today:
—So be it, and fall on! If not,
   If studious youth no longer crave,
His ancient appetites forgot,
   Kingston, or Ballantyne the brave,
Or Cooper of the wood and wave:
   So be it, also! And may I
And all my pirates share the grave
   Where these and their creations lie!

I meant to post this on Friday - but better late than never.

(Fwiw I identified these comments straight a way with TROY off here)

Labour MP Khalid Mahmood quits Keir Starmer’s frontbench, warning party taken over by ‘woke social media warriors’

Labour MP Khalid Mahmood has quit Keir Starmer’s frontbench, warning that the party has been taken over by “a London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors”.

Mr Mahmood had served as a shadow defence minister since Starmer’s arrival in office, but said he resigned because Labour had “lost touch with ordinary British people”.

The Birmingham Perry Barr MP announced his decision in the wake of the party’s crushing defeat in the former safe seat of Hartlepool, and made clear that he expected Labour also to lose the election for West Midlands mayor.

In an article for the Policy Exchange think tank, Mr Mahmood said that Labour had moved away from working-class voters’ priorities under the leaderships of not only Starmer, but also Jeremy Corbyn and Ed Miliband.

“In the past decade, Labour has lost touch with ordinary British people,” he said.

“A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party.

“They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.

“The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world.

“No wonder it is doing better among rich urban liberals and young university graduates than it is amongst the most important part of its traditional electoral coalition, the working class.”

Mr Mahmood quoted Peter Mandelson’s account of a former Labour voter who told him on a Hartlepool doorstep: “Sort yourselves out. You picked the wrong brother and you ended up with Corbyn so that’s goodbye to you. When you’ve sorted yourselves out, we’ll look at you again.”

And he said: “It would be easy for Labour MPs and members to whinge about the unfairness of this summary of the past decade.

“But we must recognise that is how we are seen by so many people in the places that were once unfailingly loyal to us – as a party that has lost its way.

“It is only by engagement on a local level, meeting eye to eye with voters and hearing their concerns, that we will fix that. I will be doing so not from the Labour front bench, but walking the streets of my constituency as a backbencher and talking face to face with the people I have the honour to serve.”

Mr Mahmood warned that “superficial flag-waving” by the party leader would not convince voters that the Labour Party shares their sense of patriotism.

“They are more alert to rebranding exercises than spin doctors give them credit for,” he warned. “Their patriotism is about historic pride in their places, the heritage and stories of those places, and the Britishness and Englishness of the people and families that call them home.”

And he said voters’ priorities were job security, a bright future for their children and grandchildren, a well-functioning NHS, and investment in infrastructure and transport.

“There is a need for humility, to begin with,” he said.

“If Labour is to win back seats like Hartlepool it will have to change the minds of people who yesterday chose to vote Conservative.

“Is there a danger that our party, in its opposition and confusion over Brexit, has veered towards an anti-British attitude? I certainly worry that some of our previous supporters will see it that way.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/khalid-mahmood-quit-labour-frontbench-starmer-b1843967.html


Or if you want all that in plain English - the rank and file voters wanted Brexit and job security/a better life - and Labour didn't give them a lead on getting Brexit done (whereas the Tory Party did!) and were up it's own arse on political ideology and wokism from middle class, woke concerned, London based, rich twats, when their voters were bothered about their jobs, standard of living and the future for their kids.

In short the party no longer represented what the people wanted but instead gave them a manifesto that had absolutely no relevance at all to them in their daily life's and a party led by people they either could not stand or identify with - or both!

Is it any wonder Labor lost so badly under the wrong brother, Corbyn and now Starmer (who to be fair has been saddled with 'Long Corbyn' up to this reshuffle)?

Ten Bobsworth wrote:"brigades of woke social media warriors”. Not very different to Nuts then, Sluffy.

It does seem like that at times.

Probably a good example in microcosm really of what has gone so badly wrong for the Labour Party in that you have a few on here with clearly their own way (dare I say ideological) of viewing what Labour politics SHOULD be and can't accept/understand why others - the electorate - don't see it the same way too.

Wanderlust had banged on constantly (along with others such as Bread) since the referendum about Brexit - even though clearly most of the country - particularly Labour constituencies - had voted overwhelmingly for it.

Indeed even Wanderlust voted for it himself although he can't admit to ever being wrong!

The point being though that the London centric Labour leadership didn't care much about what their voters wanted - and basically did not fight for the views of the people they represented.

Same with the party leadership - the wrong brother was elected (mainly because the big union leaderships had him as their man and cast their block votes to get him) and when the Party changed the system to ensure that didn't happen again, they inadvertently allowed the marginalised nutjob Corbyn and his mates to seize power - which may have been a high point for their followers (and the woke minded) but was a massive slap in the face for a vast majority of normal traditional Labour voters).

It seemed blindingly obvious to me that there was a massive mismatch between what those in control of the party were heading compared to what the normal Labour voter in the street actually thought.

Labour in Scotland lost power dramatically because the voters got sick of being taken for granted by the Party and left in droves when another party - the SNP - did want to represent their views.

In effect exactly the same thing has now happened in the rest of Great Britain in that the Conservatives clearly wanted to deliver Brexit - and had a leader that at least the electorate could in someway identify with - and Labour took the voters for granted as per usual and elected 'Ed' and then Corbyn - when David and Burnham were clearly more electable to people to vote for.

It really isn't rocket science but unfortunately for Labour, there are many like Wanderlust who can ever bring themselves to believe they were ever wrong in the first place - hence the left wing now begining to fix Starmer in their sights.

There are so many non sequitors in your attempt at logical coherence I've decided to let you disappear up Bobs arse in your ever diminishing circle of one friend - although perhaps too late to save the decline of the site. But I have to take issue with you declaring time on the Brexit discussion as the ramifications of that decision are still to come when the tax bill arrives. Unless you're a Brexit voting fisherman or creeping price increases and diminishing choice and quality of produce and services affect you already of course.

As an aside, the woke social media centrism thing worked very well for Tony Blair over a long period but I can't see how the left v centre thing in the Labour party has anything to do with their current decline in popularity. That may just be down to the traditional swing cycle of British politics but I suspect their problems lie in their toothless opposition due to a failure to construct telling arguments and overcoming antipathy from the media.

I've met quite a few Hartlepool folk over the years. All staunch Labour supporters but none of 'em shoppers at Dobber Clobber.